The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > Coldwater Fly Fishing

Coldwater Fly Fishing Trout, Salmon, Steelhead, etc...

Like Tree16Likes

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 03:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Michigan's U.P.
Posts: 937
rockriver is a glorious beacon of lightrockriver is a glorious beacon of lightrockriver is a glorious beacon of lightrockriver is a glorious beacon of lightrockriver is a glorious beacon of lightrockriver is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gt05254 View Post
I'm a lifelong bird hunter, but even if it was legal, I can't imagine shooting a heron. For any reason, but least of all, just for its feathers.
Gary
It's a beautiful bird. It needs full protection.
ddombos2 likes this.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 03:23 PM
gt05254's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bennington, VT
Posts: 1,444
gt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant future
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck s View Post
Wouldn't shoot one myself but the law doesn't even allow using a dead/roadkill bird's feathers and I've left a couple now that could have been put to good use including a Great Blue Heron.
The problem with the road kill thing is that there are some pretty unscrupulous people out there (I know, I know, hard to believe) and I suspect lots of "road kills" will have met their demise in another fashion. If its just plain against the law under any circumstance, then there's no incentive (well, hopefully not) to illegally take a bird.

Gary
ddombos2 likes this.
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 03:32 PM
Guest1's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lake of the Woods/Rainy River Minnesota Canada border
Posts: 4,752
Guest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddombos2 View Post
Riptide has said all that is necessary in reply to this topic.

I vote for the Moderator to close this thread and delete this post.

-Dan
I second the vote.
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 03:52 PM
chuck s's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Rock River, Wyoming
Posts: 521
chuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nice
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

A great way to stifle discussion! Shut it down--right! I seldom vote for shutting down a thread unless it contains offensive material, usually profanity or hate speech! As an example of how flawed the migratory law is see what hoops a village has to jump through to get rid of too many goose grease producing Geese, or what a fisheries dept has to do to even think about weeding out a cormorants or other birds that comprise a fish predator overpopulation? I watched our fisheries dept stock 250,00 trout over the past year and a half to give a new reservoir a jump start only to have their efforts completely thwarted by a flock of several hundred mergansers, cormorants, terns and more. A great discussion subject and not one that should have it's plug pulled in my humble opinion.

Gary--any law that punishes the innocent for the actions of a criminal is most usually a bad law.
__________________
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24405&dateline=129884  8088
Great Fishing
Der Alt Jaeger
Chuck S

"I've traveled many roads and some weren't paved."
Will Rodgers

http://fishing-folks.blogspot.com/
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:08 PM
gt05254's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bennington, VT
Posts: 1,444
gt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant future
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

"Gary--any law that punishes the innocent for the actions of a criminal is most usually a bad law."

How are the innocent punished in the example I set forth? Because they can't pick up a dead heron carcass? I hardly think that's punishment for the actions (I guess that would be killing a heron?) of a criminal.

We're talking about protecting an animal species, not human rights. At least I am.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for the day. Not much of a debater.

Gary
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:16 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: 208
Posts: 460
Sasha is a splendid one to beholdSasha is a splendid one to beholdSasha is a splendid one to beholdSasha is a splendid one to beholdSasha is a splendid one to beholdSasha is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

The Great Blue Heron (Ardea herodias) is a large wading bird in the heron family Ardeidae, common near the shores of open water and in wetlands over most of North and Central America as well as the West Indies and the Galápagos Islands. It is a rare vagrant to Europe, with records from Spain, the Azores and England. An all-white population found only in the Caribbean and southern Florida was once known as a separate species, the Great White Heron.





Contents
1 Taxonomy
2 Description 2.1 Voice
2.2 Similar species

3 Distribution and habitat
4 Behavior 4.1 Diet
4.2 Breeding

5 In art
6 References
7 Bibliography
8 External links


Taxonomy

The Great Blue Heron was one of the many species originally described by Carolus Linnaeus in his 18th century work, Systema Naturae.[2]

The Great Blue Heron is replaced in the Old World by the very similar Grey Heron, which differs in being somewhat smaller (90–98 cm), with a pale gray neck and legs, lacking the browner colors that Great Blue Heron has there. It forms a superspecies with this and also with the Cocoi Heron from South America, which differs in having more extensive black on the head, and a white breast and neck.

There are five subspecies:[3]
Ardea herudias herodias Linnaeus, 1758. Most of North America, except as below.
Ardea herodias fannini Chapman, 1901. The Pacific Northwest from southern Alaska south to Washington; coastal.
Ardea herodias wardi Ridgway, 1882. Kansas and Oklahoma to northern Florida. Sightings in southeastern Georgia have occurred.
Ardea herodias occidentalis Audubon, 1835. Southern Florida, Caribbean islands. Formerly known as a separate species, the Great White Heron.
Ardea herodias cognata Bangs, 1903. Galápagos Islands.

Description





Great Blue Heron




Great Blue Heron, Lower Prospect, Nova Scotia, Canada
It is the largest North American heron, with a head-to-tail length of 91–140 cm (36–55 in), a wingspan of 167–201 cm (66–79 in), a height of 115–138 cm (45–54 in) and a weight of 2–3.6 kg (4.4–8 lbs).[4] Notable features include slaty flight feathers, red-brown thighs, and a paired red-brown and black stripe up the flanks; the neck is rusty-gray, with black and white streaking down the front; the head is paler, with a nearly white face, and a pair of black plumes running from just above the eye to the back of the head. The feathers on the lower neck are long and plume-like; it also has plumes on the lower back at the start of the breeding season. The bill is dull yellowish, becoming orange briefly at the start of the breeding season, and the lower legs gray, also becoming orangey at the start of the breeding season. Immature birds are duller in color, with a dull blackish-gray crown, and the flank pattern only weakly defined; they have no plumes, and the bill is dull gray-yellow.[3][5][6]

The heron stride is around 22 cm (9 in), almost in a straight line. Two of the three front toes are generally closer together. In a track the front toes as well as the back often show the small talons.[7]

The subspecies differ only slightly in size and plumage tone, with the exception of subspecies occidentalis, which as well as normal colored birds, also has a distinct white morph, known as the Great White Heron (not to be confused with the Great Egret, for which "Great White Heron" was once a common name). It is found only in south Florida and some parts of the Caribbean. The Great White Heron differs from other Great Blues in bill morphology, head plume length, and in having a total lack of pigment in its plumage. This is mainly found near salt water, and was long thought to be a separate species. Birds intermediate between the normal morph and the white morph are known as Würdemann's Heron; these birds resemble a "normal" Great Blue with a white head.

The theory that Great White Heron may be a separate species from Great Blue Heron has again been given some support by David Sibley.[8]

Voice

The call is a harsh croak. The heron is most vocal during the breeding season, but will call occasionally at any time of the year in territorial disputes or if disturbed.









Great Blue Heron call





Four calls of the Great Blue Heron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






Similar species

The "Great White Heron" could be confused with Great Egret but is larger, with yellow legs as opposed to the Great Egret's black legs. The Reddish Egret and Little Blue Heron could be mistaken for the Great Blue Heron, but are much smaller, and lack white on the head and yellow in the bill. In the southern reaches of its range, the Great Blue sometimes overlaps in range with the closely related and similarly sized Cocoi Heron. The Cocoi is distinguished by a striking white neck and solid black crown, but the duller juveniles are more easily confused. More superficially similar is the slightly smaller Grey Heron, which may sometimes vagrate to the Northern coasts of North America. The Grey (which occupies the same ecological niche in Eurasia as the Great Blue Heron) has very similar plumage but has a solidly soft-gray neck. Erroneously, the Great Blue Heron is sometimes referred to as a "crane".

Distribution and habitat





Flying with nesting material in Illinois, USA
The Great Blue Heron is found throughout most of North America, as far north as Alaska and the southern Canadian provinces. The range extends south through Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean to South America. Birds east of the Rocky Mountains in the northern part of their range are migratory and winter in Central America or northern South America. From the southern United States southwards, and on the Pacific coast, they are year-round residents.[3] However their hardiness is such that individuals often remain through cold northern winters, as well.

It can be found in a range of habitats, in fresh and saltwater marshes, mangrove swamps, flooded meadows, lake edges, or shorelines, but always close to bodies of water, usually nesting in trees or bushes.

It has been recorded as a vagrant in England,[9] Greenland, Hawaii, and the Azores.[3]

Behavior

Diet





Eating a small fish, the main prey.




Eating a Common Snapping Turtle (Chelydra serpentina) hatchling
The primary food for Great Blue Heron is small fish, though it is also known to opportunistically feed on a wide range of shrimp, crabs, aquatic insects, rodents and other small mammals, amphibians, reptiles, and small birds. Herons locate their food by sight and usually swallow it whole. Herons have been known to choke on prey that is too large.[10] It is generally a solitary feeder. Individuals usually forage while standing in water, but will also feed in fields or drop from the air, or a perch, into water. As large wading birds, Great Blue Herons are able to feed in deeper waters, and thus are able to harvest from niche areas not open to most other heron species.

It feeds in shallow water or at the water's edge during both the night and the day, but especially around dawn and dusk. It uses its long legs to wade through shallow water, and spears fish or frogs with its long, sharp bill.


Breeding





At the nest
This species usually breeds in colonies, in trees close to lakes or other wetlands. Often such colonies include only Great Blue Herons, sometimes they nest alongside other species of herons. These groups are called heronry (a more specific term than "rookery"). The size of these colonies may be large, ranging between 5–500 nests per colony, with an average of approximately 160 nests per colony.

Great Blue Herons build a bulky stick nest, and the female lays three to six pale blue eggs. One brood is raised each year. If the nest is abandoned or destroyed, the female may lay a replacement clutch. Reproduction is negatively affected by human disturbance, particularly during the beginning of nesting. Repeated human intrusion into nesting areas often results in nest failure, with abandonment of eggs or chicks.

Both parents feed the young at the nest by regurgitating food. Parent birds have been shown to consume up to four times as much food when they are feeding young chicks than when laying or incubating eggs.

Eggs are incubated for around 28 days[11] and hatch asynchronously over a period of several days. The first chick to hatch usually becomes more experienced in food handling and aggressive interactions with siblings, and so often grows more quickly than the other chicks. Predators of eggs and nestlings include turkey vultures, several corvids, hawks, bears and raccoons, the latter two also potential predators of adults. Adult herons, due to their size, have few natural predators, but can be taken by Bald Eagles, Golden Eagles and, less frequently, Great Horned Owls and Red-tailed Hawks. When predation on an adult or chick occurs at a breeding colony, the colony can be abandoned by the other birds, but this does not always occur.[12]





Würdemann's Heron, Everglades National Park, Florida
In art

John James Audubon illustrates the Great Blue Heron in Birds of America, Second Edition (published, London 1827–38) as Plate 161. The image was engraved and colored by Robert Havell's, London workshops. The original watercolor by Audubon was purchased by the New-York Historical Society where it remains to this day (January 2009).

References

1.^ BirdLife International (2008). Ardea herodias. In: IUCN 2008. IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Downloaded on 5 February 2009. Database entry includes justification for why this species is of least concern.
2.^ Linnaeus, C (1758) (in Latin). Systema naturae per regna tria naturae, secundum classes, ordines, genera, species, cum characteribus, differentiis, synonymis, locis. Tomus I. Editio decima, reformata.. Holmiae. (Laurentii Salvii).. pp. 105.
3.^ a b c d del Hoyo, J., Elliott, A., & Sargatal, J., eds. (1992). Handbook of the Birds of the World Vol. 1. Lynx Edicions, Barcelona ISBN 84-87334-10-5.
4.^ CRC Handbook of Avian Body Masses by John B. Dunning Jr. (Editor). CRC Press (1992), ISBN 978-0849342585.
5.^ Sibley, D. (2000). The Sibley Guide to Birds. National Audubon Society ISBN 0-679-45122-6
6.^ Dickinson, M. B. et al., eds. (1999). Field Guide to the Birds of North America. National Geographic ISBN 0-7922-7451-2.
7.^ Murie & Elbroch, Peterson Field Guide to Animal Tracks, pg. 334 (2005)
8.^ Sibley, D. A. "Great White" Heron – not just a colour morph (retrieved 2009-01-24)
9.^ "Heron in UK, 3K miles off target
10.^ "Hinterland Who's Who – Great Blue Heron". Canadian Wildlife Service. Retrieved 2007-11-23.
11.^ Great Blue Heron
12.^ Animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu

Bibliography
Stiles and Skutch, A guide to the birds of Costa Rica ISBN 0-8014-9600-4
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:31 PM
chuck s's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Rock River, Wyoming
Posts: 521
chuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nice
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gt05254 View Post
"Gary--any law that punishes the innocent for the actions of a criminal is most usually a bad law."

How are the innocent punished in the example I set forth? Because they can't pick up a dead heron carcass? I hardly think that's punishment for the actions (I guess that would be killing a heron?) of a criminal.

We're talking about protecting an animal species, not human rights. At least I am.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for the day. Not much of a debater.

Gary
The criminal would be the person that kills one under the law today, or poaches it. It is a criminal offense. The law was written to stop this. The innocent ones getting punished would be the many folks who've picked up an eagle feather, or plucked a few feathers from a dead carcass and get caught and prosecuted by the USF&W service and it happens more frequently than you might think. Given the forensic expertise and more that resides with our law these days, the picking up and use of these feathers hardly seems to warrant that it should be a criminal offense?

Sasha--great rundown on the Heron but "seriously," isn't it illegal to copy and post all that without permission? Sort of akin to picking up a stray feather don't you think?
__________________
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24405&dateline=129884  8088
Great Fishing
Der Alt Jaeger
Chuck S

"I've traveled many roads and some weren't paved."
Will Rodgers

http://fishing-folks.blogspot.com/
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:41 PM
gt05254's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bennington, VT
Posts: 1,444
gt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant futuregt05254 has a brilliant future
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

"The innocent ones getting punished would be the many folks who've picked up an eagle feather, or plucked a few feathers from a dead carcass and get caught and prosecuted by the USF&W service and it happens more frequently than you might think."

Except the act of picking up that feather is illegal. Pretty plain and simple. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Certainly, just as in any endeavor, law enforcement or otherwise, there are overzealous individuals and little old ladies get prosecuted for putting sparrow feathers in a sun catcher (I have a PhD in wildlife ecology from years ago, but I'm not totally out of touch). Should we make possesion of heron feathers legal based on what you've presented? Nah.

I still fail to see where the innocent are being punished for the actions of criminals in regard to the topic at hand. Sorry, just don't buy it.
Gary
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:54 PM
ddombos2's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 238
ddombos2 will become famous soon enoughddombos2 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Yahoo to ddombos2 Send a message via Skype™ to ddombos2
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck s View Post
A great way to stifle discussion! Shut it down--right! I seldom vote for shutting down a thread unless it contains offensive material, usually profanity or hate speech! As an example of how flawed the migratory law is see what hoops a village has to jump through to get rid of too many goose grease producing Geese, or what a fisheries dept has to do to even think about weeding out a cormorants or other birds that comprise a fish predator overpopulation? I watched our fisheries dept stock 250,00 trout over the past year and a half to give a new reservoir a jump start only to have their efforts completely thwarted by a flock of several hundred mergansers, cormorants, terns and more. A great discussion subject and not one that should have it's plug pulled in my humble opinion.

Gary--any law that punishes the innocent for the actions of a criminal is most usually a bad law.
Your original post regarded the importation of Heron feathers. You may refer to your own opening post if necessary. On that topic, I am in utter agreement with RipTide The notion of modifying laws to protect migratory birds/waterfowl for the sake of a fly tying material seems wanton, irresponsible, and simply unnecessary.

I fully support shutting a thread that will yield little in the way of legitimate discourse. Moreover, it sounded like somebody trying to sell Heron feathers.

It seems like you've migrated topics (pun intended). Now you are saying that the United States laws and policies on migratory birds simultaneously stiffle legitimate trade (i.e. Heron Feathers) while simultaneously proving to be inadequate and an impediment to the responsible management of the environment (Is that the environment as a whole or the environment as it relates to the lucrative Heron Feather Trade?). That might be a reasonable topic. I am not well enough informed except to say that feather sales and fly tying materials have little merit in terms of steering law or policy involving the management of a migratory bird species.

Good luck in the Feather Business.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:55 PM
chuck s's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Rock River, Wyoming
Posts: 521
chuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nice
Default Re: A law that needs to be changed?

Apologies for not getting through to you. I was speaking of the creation of unjust laws and this is a great example.

DDombos2--you may also read my opening post??? I didn't speak to just the import question at all. "Your original post regarded the importation of Heron feathers" You may refer to your own opening post if necessary." Wrong try reading before commenting. I will admit to jumping topics somewhat. Apologies if that threw you or others.

You went on: " On that topic, I am in utter agreement with RipTide The notion of modifying laws to protect migratory birds/waterfowl for the sake of a fly tying material seems wanton, irresponsible, and simply unnecessary." I understand your comment and agree somewhat but personally wouldn't go as far as that but seeing that the majority of other countries allow the import and export, and they are not endangered, and these two factors alone give me pause for consideration.

Which brings me to something we seem to agree on: "I am not well enough informed except to say that feather sales and fly tying materials have little merit in terms of steering law or policy involving the management of a migratory bird species." That and the slight jump of topics we are in agreement with. I've never sold any animal parts other than the usual fare in several fly shops where I've worked but I've long experience education wise and both professionally and as a sportsman with the environment and the EPA, USF&WS and more do have a lot of problems while accomplishing much good. It is the problems we have to worry about! Remember Ducks are a migratory species and their feathers are routinely imported, exported, gathered by our citizens, sold and traded so to me it seems stilted or worse to single out a Heron.
__________________
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24405&dateline=129884  8088
Great Fishing
Der Alt Jaeger
Chuck S

"I've traveled many roads and some weren't paved."
Will Rodgers

http://fishing-folks.blogspot.com/

Last edited by chuck s; 01-25-2012 at 05:17 PM.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Changed the Line, What a Difference! Hardyreels How to Spey Cast - Technique and Advice 5 06-13-2011 08:49 PM
The holidays are over and the year has changed. The days are short and the water is c Fish Bones The Daily Papers 0 01-06-2009 02:23 AM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.