[CaBrit]

Hi everyone, pretty new to fly fishing and for my first rod I was pointed toward a good 9' echo 5 wt as a good all around rod. My fishing will be primarily in the Western rivers for trout.

I was at the casting pond practicing yesterday and another fly caster showed up with an 8' 4 wt. I was very impressed with his delicate line presentation compared with my flailing 5 wt and the 4 wt looked perfect for some of the smaller streams.

While I know that it won't be perfect, is it okay to put a spool of 4 wt on my rod for smaller streams?

Another question - In my casting practice I'm putting a lot of focus on getting some distance while still making a decent presentation. At what distance do you find yourself casting more often? Should I concentrate on perfect presentations at 40' or getting out to 60' - 70'?

Thanks

[peregrines]

CABrit

Hmmmm. Probably lot's of different opinions on this, so take this with a grain of salt, but here goes...

What kind of taper is your fly line now? If it's a weight forward, you may be better off going to a 5 double taper or 5 triangle (Wulff) taper line for softer presentations.... if you really need them. Personally I tend to think of 4 weights for spring creeks, small dry flies, light tippets and relatively short casts. For bigger/faster water, larger flies and longer distances I would look to a 5 or 6 weight, with the 6 well suited for big rivers and streamers as well as dries wets and nymphs and have the ooomph to deliver larger flies and heavier leaders. Unless you did a lot of spring creek stuff, you might be better off with a sink tip or a full sink line if you already have a floater before you added another one if you bounce around on different water types

Because fly rods are designed to load based on the grain weight of the line outside the tip, underlining may not be the way to go if you're just starting out. In fact some beginners upline, using a 6 wt line on a 5 wt rod, or use special lines like Rio Grande or SA GPX that are actually heavier in grains than the indicated line weight. This is because beginners typically have some trouble loading the rod and tend to carry less line in the air outside the tip. Expert casters, that carry 50-60 feet outside the tip might want to underline since carrying more line = more weight = more rod load. You may have trouble loading your 5 wt rod with a 4 wt line and sacrifice both distance and accuracy if you have to work hard to get line out.

As far as the casting pond, try to practice a bunch of different things. Go for distance, try short accurate casts 20-30-40 feet, roll casts, reach and wiggle casts and some side arm stuff to get under bushes and throw curve/hook casts. For most fishing in moving water, the short range accuracy, and ability to get a drag free drift is probably the most important, at least on the water i fish. Sometimes the ability to reach the far bank is important, but typically longer casts cross more current speeds and lead to shorter, harder to control presentations.

Next time you're there, you might strike up a conversation and see if you could get a chance to try another line on your rod by swapping reels or for some tips from someone that looks like he knows what he's doing. From what I hear, people in CA are much nicer than they are here, and unless s/he's a real ahole, or just a tourist from back east, you'll probably find someone that's happy to help.

good luck

peregrines

[Hardyreels]

Dropping a wt. is usually not a problem if all your casting is at long range. The rod will load fine at distance although you may be working a little harder in the range you'll need a lot.

Most of my casting for Trout is relatively close work especially with the light rods and lines. For distance work I like a 9'6" Greys 7wt. you can put it down well enough with practice.

Don't get caught up in the mindset that unless you are pumping out almost an entire fly line you're not really casting. Approach the water with the premises that plenty of fish are close to shore (which often times they are) and look around thoroughly for close range targets. Casting flies is very much a case of learning to walk prior to running. Usually a person who casts well at close range will be a fine distance caster provided the proper level of coordination is present in said person. Longer lines require a good sense of timing in order to avoid problems.

In closing, work smaller waters until you are proficient and gradually stretch your range. If you are fishing with someone who is a distance pro or they are all around you, don't let that influence your learning process. Take your time, enjoy the journey and you will reach out soon enough.

[Frank Whiton]

Hi CaBrit,

You say casting pond, is this a regular casting pond that has been built? If you had approached the other caster I bet he would have let you try his outfit. At the very least he may have given you some pointers.

It may be your casting ability that was the big difference between his presentation and yours. You will be well served with your 5wt Echo on Western rivers. As you decrease line weights and ever thing else is equal, the lighter line weight will be easier to make a soft presentations. So the 4wt is better than the 5wt and the 3wt is better than the 4wt and so on. If you under line your rod you will have to have more line out of the tip to cast your 5wt rod properly. A new caster has a hard time judging when the line and rod is in balance. You may be creating more problems for your self than it is worth. If you decide to put a 4wt on your 5wt to fish small streams you are creating more problems because you need more line out of the tip. So short cast will actually be harder with the 4wt on the 5wt rod.

Light line rods are best for dry fly fishing. If most of your fishing is dry fly then a light line rod is a good choice. If you fish Wester rivers you will want to be able to fish nymphs and streamers besides dry flies. In most cases nymphs and streamers will out fish dry flies day in and day out. Your 5wt rod with a 5wt line is a better choice for fishing nymphs, streamers and dry flies.

I suggest you practice casting in the 30' to 50' range. Learn the left and right reach cast, the roll cast, the slack line or S curve cast. With these cast you will be set for most situations. If you learn to cast 60' or 70' it will improve your overall casting. Longer casts requires your timing and technique to be right or your cast will fail.

Frank

[wtex50]

Trying not to be too technical, but IMHO a 4 wt on a 5 wt rod will be better for long casts and if there is wind. If your casts are short casts on small streams a 6 wt on a 5 wt rod will load the rod faster, with less line and be easier to roll cast with. A lot of people make the mistake in high winds to think that a heavier line will cast farther...it is just the opposite - a 4 wt will cast better on a 5 wt rod than a 6 wt. With in close fishing..small steams etc...just the opposite is true... overlining will give you more control and make roll casting easier...the one caveat is...the heavier line will not be as delicate in the presentation...so if it is still water.... go with as light a line as you can that will still load the rod

[Joe D]

CaBrit,

To answer your question, yes, you can. Would it give you any benefit? Probably not.

The difference in presentation on a well made cast isn't that great between a 4 & 5 weight. Switching between a double taper and a weight forward line won't matter either; with most of the line companies both have the same front taper. Some brands like Sci Anglers XPS weight forward line even have a longer front taper than their double taper line.

Practice your casting and think smoooooth. It'll click for you.

[hardhat]

There is no universal limits on how a 4 weight, 5 weight, 6 weight or any other weight rod is suppose to perform. Lefty Kreh would go up or down several weights depending on the rod he is using. Even the "Common Cents System" on fly rods shows that rod blanks and rod manufacturers under or over label their products.
I fish many streams throughout the western states. The west does have some great large tailwaters and also many small streams. In time and with more experience you will discover that one rod will not meet all of your fly fishing needs. If I were you I would plan on having a starter "collection" including a 4wt and a 6wt. Purchase a reel which you feel comfortable with and has extra spools available for several lines.
As far as practice goes I would suggest form and accuracy first before distance. You will find that there will be many opportunities to catch trout with accurate throws under 40 feet.

[CaBrit]

Thanks once again everyone for such great advice. I decided to dedicate my (limited) fishing time this weekend to a casting lesson rather than flailing at the lake and I'm so glad that I did. Behind a decent rod and line, this was by far the best money that I've spent on flyfishing so far!

He brought a selection of rods and lines and we spent the first hour getting me somewhat competent with each. We started with an 8' antique Japanese bamboo rod with a line that was suited for the rod (about 5/6). The rod was so soft and very unforgiving of not allowing it to load up before beginning the next cast. We then moved onto a modern 9' 6wt with a double taper which while not too different from my setup was quite different in it's behavior especially with less line out. Finally I got to practice dislocating each joint in my arm with a 10wt shooting line monster which taught me that I've a long way to go before tossing streamers at big salmon! After a few min with my rod on the grass we moved to the water and worked on the basics and presentation before finishing with roll and steeple casts and mending.

When I posed the question I was just a little concerned that perhaps I'd bought the wrong outfit for what I need and the casting lessons confirmed your (and my local shop's) advice that I have the right gear and just need to learn how to use it! When the time and need is right I will get a lighter and heavier outfit but in the meantime I'll practice a lot more to get competent with with what I have. I'm fortunate to have some public casting pools nearby and will be taking advantage of them and the advice of others there for sure!

Thanks again everyone and if there are any other newbies reading this - heed the advice here and at your local fly fishing store and take lessons!

[BigCliff]

CaBrit- You've gotten a lot of great advice here and have heeded the best advice of all- to get the diagnosis of an expert in person. Coaching of an athletic variety will never be done most effectively over the internet.

I want to second Frank's advice that you will gain the most benefit from learning to cast very accurately and effectively between 20 and 40' feet. I can vouch that even a big powerful guy that can double haul well and cast a 4wt 90' is still going to catch 95% of his fish within 40' of his boots.

In golf the saying is "drive for show, putt for dough". The terminology and setting are different for fly anglers, but the essential truth is very similar.

[CaBrit]

Thanks BigCliff, I actually heeded Frank's excellent advice today! I didn't want too much time to pass after my lessons before practicing again so sneaked off to the casting pools today. I fought my old habit of of a soft wrist and not stopping properly but at least now I know how to recognize what I was doing wrong. I practiced some basics and lots of accuracy in the 30 - 40 ft range. I also practiced some roll casting as I'm told I'll really need that on my closest creek.

For some reason I found it much easier to cast a somewhat decent presentation at longer distances than I did closer. About half of my longer (40 - 50 ft) casts were acceptable (to me) presentations, but I thrashed the water at 30'. I use a Rio selectice trout WF5F line, should I be thinking of a double taper - is that easier at shorter distances? Or do i just need more practice Ha ha!

Thanks again,
Karl