[Frank Whiton]

Hi Buonarroti,

Thanks for that very interesting post. I have to assume there will be a reduction in the price. This is a good indications as to what will happen to the American made Reels and Rods if we keep buying the overseas built items. I personally don't own any Reels or Rods made from overseas nor do I intend to buy any.

Frank

[bonefish41]

In the meantime, the Korean plant has met (and some people say exceeded) former English quality standards, and as of January 1, 2008, all Angel Mark II reels will be clearly labelled and made in Korea. I have seen prototype examples of these reels and they are superb in every way. As I am sure you are aware, this is only a foretaste of things to come, as Korea, China and Japan have become the factories for the world, and from cameras to cars they have excelled in this role at far less cost than European and North American companies have been able to achieve".

Frank and I are of one mind we don't fish chinese copies...and for me even if the hardy had a price tag of 150 i would not but at their 350 plus that's as absurd as nike's $180 shoes... that said the above quote is only accurate as to china and korea it is not as to japan their manufacturing costs equal or exceeds ours...for example Shimano reels made in japan...the quote over generalizes japanese cars are not cheap and as for cameras a wally mart or entry level digi made in a territory not yet admiited to the UN ain't the same as those shooting for SI...AP or Getty they are using the most expensive glass and boxes in the world made in japan not gorea or china...japanese professional quality glass is not cheap...it is the best and it is expensive

back on topic...albiet not flyfishing...Accurate and more particularly Avet make in the US in the state of california which if one gallon of their used cutting fluid hits the ground and ground water outside their plant all execs would be doing hard time in the Q...exceptionally fine machined saltwater conventional spooled reels whose quality and design exceeds that of comparable Shimanos and Avet does it at significantly lower price to the consumer...it can be done and is being done...forget the wage differential just impose the comparable cost factors of EPA and workmen's comp as in this country and watch the price of their goods look like the Xmas Neiman Marcus catalogue...what does it cost to kill a chinese machine shop worker making copies compared to the same worker in California making originals...

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by Frank Whiton

Hi Buonarroti,

Thanks for that very interesting post. I have to assume there will be a reduction in the price. This is a good indications as to what will happen to the American made Reels and Rods if we keep buying the overseas built items. I personally don't own any Reels or Rods made from overseas nor do I intend to buy any.

Frank

Since we have English reels in stock, we have both on the US price list. The British reels range from 695 to 859 for the 9/10. The new Angel II starts at 385 and the 9/10 tops at at 630$. we do offer the II in a 11/12 for 670. As you can see the savings is substantial for a nicer reel. In the case of Hardy you have to realize that British labor is higher the US labor and the exchange rate is almost 3 to 1. I don't think Hardy had much choice but to follow the route that Sage and Orvis have already done.

[Frank Whiton]

Hi burk48237,

Thanks for the price information. Hardy is a wonderful old reel maker. My first Steelhead reel was a Hardy that I bought in 1954. I don't remember if it was a St George or a Perfect. I seem to remember it was a St George. Bought it used for $75. I was 19 and that was a lot of money to me. It was a 4" model and held a bunch of line and backing.

Sage, and Orvis have always been companies that sold other companie's reels with their brand name. It would seen a natural fit for them to buy overseas. Selling a reel made overseas does not necessarily mean the reel is low quality. Everybody is using the same CNC machinery. The problem I have is why spend $300/$600 for a reel made overseas when there are just great reels made in America for the same money. It is a choice that each person must make for themselves. I am glad to see Hardy is finding ways to keep their reels on the market at a competitive price.

Frank

[burk48237]

That St. George is still a great reel. I do all my FW fishing with Hardy Click and Pawl reels and have landed many fine Steelhead and Salmon and never missed the modern drag systems, many of which seem to fail at the most inopportune times.

[bonefish41]

My first fly reel was my dad's hardy perfect taped to a south bend 7' spinning rod...

As for Frank's comment about pricing... I did an online search of two retailers one in montana and one in pennsylvania Abel big game old model on sale: #2$445;#3$490;#4N$550. Tibor Riptide $635; Everglades $610; Ross Momentum 10 wt $494; Teton 10 $240...this is not an exhaustive list of USA machined reels...thus an angel II korean priced at $610.00 versus the above USA comparators...

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by bonefish41

My first fly reel was my dad's hardy perfect taped to a south bend 7' spinning rod...

As for Frank's comment about pricing... I did an online search of two retailers one in montana and one in pennsylvania Abel big game old model on sale: #2$445;#3$490;#4N$550. Tibor Riptide $635; Everglades $610; Ross Momentum 10 wt $494; Teton 10 $240...this is not an exhaustive list of USA machined reels...thus an angel II korean priced at $610.00 versus the above USA comparators...

True, But those are sale prices on the Abels, and the Sage (made in Korea) is 650$ as is the Orvis Vortex (made in Indonesia) 625$. Remember Hardy also makes the Zane, which is very similar to the Tibor for 550$. The Teton while a fine value is not in the same class with any of the reels listed.

[bonefish41]

Originally Posted by burk48237

True, But those are sale prices on the Abels, and the Sage (made in Korea) is 650$ as is the Orvis Vortex (made in Indonesia) 625$. Remember Hardy also makes the Zane, which is very similar to the Tibor for 550$. The Teton while a fine value is not in the same class with any of the reels listed.

Burk:
The Abel site retail prices for the standard BG no porting is: 3N $530 and 4N $630 that pricing is value...I have a USA vortex...to pay indo/orvis $625 or Sage gorea at $650 or any others of similar country of origin comparably priced is equally as absurd as 500 plus gorean Hardys...the Teton finishes or drag are not comparables but the price is 50% or less and it's made in California and its drag is good enough for all fresh water and all flats saltwater if you use in hand drag supplement and don't put more than 2 lbs on a Teton.

Are the Zane's now korean or england...I looked at my fly shop and it was not reel marked ...just like orvis they do not reel mark...the early vortex had made in usa and english mach's made in england...but the latter's were fine print on the box ....not so on abels, Ross USA

The principle of my opinion of value does not discriminate between china, korea, indonesia or any other similar... in our free enterprise system company's are free to make and price at their discretion but why hide third world manufacturing behind a label...now at least cabelas, bass pro, gander mountain et al private brand cheap reels don't hide country of origin
nor do they charge 350 to 600..700... for their private brands.

[burk48237]

Bonefish, While I respect your position, and you have every right as a consumer to make the choice your happy with. I do think a distinction needs to be made. The Hardy Zane, Angel, and Sage sealed drag reals are different animals then the private label reels you are referring too. They are not "me too" copies but unique offerings in their class. I can assure you that Hardy spent megabucks in the design and testing of those reels and I imagine Sage did the same. They also are unique offerings in the big game market. The Avacab drag system that Hardy uses is an advanced fiber used in F1 race car brakes and the drag was tested in fully submerged in Ice Water, 10W40, and Salt Water. Conditions that could easily damage many of their competitors drags. Both the Angel and the Sage offer a fully sealed drag, which is a huge advantage to many Great Lakes Steelheaders who have seen their high dollar cork drag reels hydroplane. Are they better? Not necessarily but they are different and unique offerings in the market. I can't speak to the Orvis Vortek as I am not as familiar with it.

I can guarantee you that Hardy sales increased tremendously last year with the offerings of the Marksman and the Zanes, which offered increased value to their customers. The English exchange rate is almost 2 1/2 to one, and the same Angel that was 895$ last year was not being chosen when customers were looking at Tibor and Abel, so I am perfectly happy with their decision to offer better reels for considerably less money.

[bonefish41]

I forgot Nautilus Fly Reels from FLA all USA and outstanding machine tool work and finishes. Their web site prcing is 450-550 for comparables