Ultra Violet Flies?

[andrew_rigsby]

This weekend I stopped by the local fly shop on my way to the river. The owner told me that UV flies are really producing alot of fish right now and pointed me towards an olive wooly bugger. He put it under a black light and showed me how it looks to a fish. I shrugged, said ok, and grabbed one.

During the day I wasnt having much luck, so I had my dad put on an olive wooly bugger and I put on the UV version of the EXACT same fly. Fishing ten feet apart I caught three fish in the first five minutes. I had him put it on and he brought in several fish as well. The UV fly seemed to be much more successful than its normal counterpart.

My question is, has anyone ever dealt with UV materials when tying? Does it really look that different to a fish? Thanks as always for your valued opinions.

 

[planettrout]

I threw all my UV 2 materials away, because a number of "experts" around here stated they would not improve my catch ratio...





...NOT


PT/TB

 

[fredaevans]

From personal experience UV materials really do 'Bring something to the Party' with Steelhead and Salmon ties.

 

[silver creek]

This weekend I stopped by the local fly shop on my way to the river. The owner told me that UV flies are really producing alot of fish right now and pointed me towards an olive wooly bugger. He put it under a black light and showed me how it looks to a fish. I shrugged, said ok, and grabbed one.

During the day I wasnt having much luck, so I had my dad put on an olive wooly bugger and I put on the UV version of the EXACT same fly. Fishing ten feet apart I caught three fish in the first five minutes. I had him put it on and he brought in several fish as well. The UV fly seemed to be much more successful than its normal counterpart.

My question is, has anyone ever dealt with UV materials when tying? Does it really look that different to a fish? Thanks as always for your valued opinions.

There are 3 kinds of "UV" materials.

Human's cannot see much UV below 370 nanometers. So if the material glowed or looked different under the black light it was either fluorescence or phosphorescence.

http://www.yorku.ca/eye/lambdas.htm

In fluorescence the material absorbs UV photon and re-emits it immediately at a lower frequency in the visible range.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence"]Fluorescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

In phosphorescence the material absorbs UV photons and re-emits it over time.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence"]Phosphorescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

UV photons have higher energy that visible light and can penetrate deeper into water and so there are relatively more UV photons, the deeper the fly gets. Therefore, both fluorescence and phosphoresce flies are more visible as the water gets deeper.

UV reflectance is the third type of tying material. This is material that reflects UV light that WE CANNOT SEE. So it would not look any different to you than non-uv material under a black light. If the UV fly looked different to you under a black light than a non-UV fly, it contained either fluorescent and/or phosphorescent materials.

Whether it contains UV reflecting materials cannot be determined by shining UV black light on it because we cannot see the reflected UV light.

 

[irons]

I know in conventional tackle uv is a big thing on deep running crank baits but I never really gave it much thought in fly fishing. Guess it may work ok on subsurface presentations.

 

[silver creek]

Lets be very honest about “UV” materials.

Take a look at the Spirit River UV2 materials below under UV light. They glow. They are fluorescent materials and we have had fluorescent materials for quite a while.

They are look brighter to us and they look brighter to the trout but that is NOT because they REFLECT UV. For a material to fluoresce it has to ABSORB UV. If it is ABSORBING it CANNOT be REFLECTING.

The labeling on the last package even says “Fl” for fluorescent chartreuse.

 

[andrew_rigsby]

Wow this is some awesome stuff guys! Next time I am there I will be sure to get the exact details, although I am pretty sure it was UV2 materials maybe it wasnt a black light and I just thought it was. Either way this is some awesome information and alot to think about. Im still curious about on the water experiences if anyone has some two cents on that.

 

[GrtLksMarlin]

Though no spectroscopic physicist or ophthalmologist, let me toss in perhaps a worthless two cents worth from a Bow Hunters point of view.....and do your own research as much of this post could be flawed.

Hunting hours in at least my state for many species typically lasts until 1/2 hour past sunset. The reason for that is in that though you may no longer have direct sunlight, you do never the less reap the benefits of reflected sunlight. Essentially light reflecting of of our atmosphere slowly fading to total darkness 1/2 hour past true sunset. Lower wavelengths "supposedly" not reflecting as well, higher better.

Now perhaps my vision is simply more sensitive to it (in addition to I also have outstanding night vision so rarely use a light), yet I at least and others I have spoken with just after true sunset will suddenly see a significant burst of light that slowly fades until quitting time. Literally, colors will be more intense, contrast is enhanced dramatically, and you actually lose a lot of the haze of direct sunlight and perhaps more significantly the confusion of shadows.

"Supposedly" that phenomena occurs due to the reduction of visible light, most assuradly direct sunlight, yet also due to higher wavelengths of light including UV light reflected now more obvious as it does its thing not overpowered in our vision spectrum by lower wavelengths of light (though know that is simply what product manufacturers have stated, how credible their scientists testing I have no idea).

It is not that things suddenly glow due to high spectrum and UV light, just that certain colors/objects/materials become enhanced and more obvious in contrast to seeing a full unrestrained spectrum of light. To myself it just means that certain colors become more obvious instead of muted.....and though they say certain animals, birds, fish, and insects can "see" UV light, I would not be surprised if it turned out that they "see" high frequency & UV exactly the same way I recognize it though even much more enhanced.

In a nutshell, it is due to a filters within our eye. Perhaps mine and others with great night vision have lower quality filters, or perhaps most folks just have never paid attention to it......In any case, many game animals do not have those filters or at least not to the degree we do. So they along with other reasons see better during low light....Again I'm betting it is due to contrast.

To capitalize upon this time, weapon sight manufacturers make what they claim are UV affected materials....Essentially plastics that "seem" to glow or really more get brighter actually looking as though lit up.....They will actually look as though a powered light is fueling them.

All of that said......Under water longer wavelengths of light are absorbed quickly (orange and red). Shorter wavelengths are not (green and blue).....Yet oddly to our discussion UV is also absorbed quickly.

To that end.....and perhaps even explaining my own low light acute vision, it might be more that what they claim as "UV reflective" is really more "higher wavelength reflective".....and by capitalizing upon that, you're capitalizing on the wavelengths of light that reach the fish the best.

In kind, it would not surprise me if in contrast to the glowing blue images used to demonstrate supposed "UV" reflectiveness, in reality it would simply mean that under the right spectrum of light the object simply stands out more, or is more contrasting then usual.

The result being compared to everything else, it looks, lit up.

Just not like those glowing blue pictures.

Just a logical guess of a bowhunter (you know, those guys not smart enough to come in out of the rain or cold....so dull witted they can sit for hours unmoving and be perfectly content).

B.E.F.

 

[bigjim5589]

As far as tying materials go, I've tried different things including "UV", fluorescent, and phosphorescent materials, and none are "magic". In certain situations they all may have a place that improves the productivity of the flies, but IMO, use of these materials may not be any better than those without the "features" these materials are advertised to possess much of the time under conditions we may all find most of the time. As Silver's information suggested, those times that any of these materials seemed to improve my flies, has been in deeper water application's and in particular on darker days. However, I don't feel that the use of these materials alone contribute significantly to any fly. There are other design features in our most productive flies, and these still have to be present. You can't simply tie some UV or other materials mentioned to a hook & expect it to perform miracles.

 

[mojo]

I like and use UV flies. They work for me and Joni. What doesn't seem to work is that UV spray you put on, let it dry and fish it. At least it doesn't seem to work for me. There are some that swear by it though.
​

 

[GrtLksMarlin]

I like and use UV flies. They work for me and Joni. What doesn't seem to work is that UV spray you put on, let it dry and fish it. At least it doesn't seem to work for me. There are some that swear by it though.​

Perhaps that's just the conditions of your river, water/fish/background contrast/depth/etc. that has something to do with that (different result based on product used). As Leisure Suit Larry might say, "when Aqua Velva isn't catching you babes, splash on half a bottle of Hai Karate then disco." Which personally, I think would be terrible advice.....Everyone knows you need to bathe in Jovan with an English Leather over-splash.

Besides, it's rarely "just" one thing as BigJim5589 states. The water fished in, weather of the day, how that fly looks in relation to depth/background/light, heck even how much the fish are already catching and their general mood....A gazillion variables.

That's why I've always believed the initial appropriate presentation is key.......
"Hey baby, grrrr, I'm an Aries what's your sign? What say we truck on over to the gravel beds and get....
funkayyyyyy."

B.E.F.

 

[planettrout]

If one decides to use any of the UV2 products, Spirit River suggests that one of these three materials be used as a base - under the abdomen or thorax of the pattern:



White thread - I like the Fl. White from UTC...



Silver Mylar...



Pearl Mylar...

This is a variation of Loren Williams' BARON with Pearl Mylar under the UV2 Turkey Biot abdomen:



If one wishes to slide into the use of these materials gradually, I suggest trying the UV2 dubbing enhancers to mix with a regular dubbing...(on left):



More information is HERE:

https://spiritriver.com/materials/tying-essentials/dubbing/uv2-multi-spectrum-blends

I will not use the spay on stuff which I consider to be overkill and of dubious effectiveness...

If these materials did not work, Craig Matthews would not be offering them, in a number of his proven patterns, sold at Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone


PT/TB

 

[silver creek]

Spirit River calls their material UV2. I think the "2" in UV 2 refers to UV Fluorescence + UV Reflectance.

From a Spirit River UV2 Advertisement :

"The UVR spectrum is extremely common in the animal/insect world. This is how bees find flowers and mayflies find mates. While many male species exhibit UVR to attract mates or to feed, many females exhibit less UVR to camouflage themselves and their young.

UVR is abundant in plankton, algae, baitfish, invertebrates & similar species. UV sensitive cones in the eyes of fish allow them to see in much greater detail in adverse water and light conditions......

Our special UVEM™ dye processes on feathers and furs add more UVR by increasing its electron mobility, its luminescence and overall light spectrum. The UVEM™ is high in reflectivity and has diffusing properties, which the animal world identifies and exploits. With a special UV light held behind a material, the lighter shades (red and above) will glow ever so slightly.

A better way of saying this is that our fluorescent materials “scream” at you and our UVEM™ materials “whisper” to you."

I don't doubt that Spirit River UV2 materials are effective. However, they imply that somehow they imitate the UV reflectivity of natural bugs. Notice that they don't actually say their UV reflectance matches bugs or bait fish; but they mention it, and they want you to make the logical leap that they cannot state.

If I wrote that aquatic insects reflect visible light and that I had dubbing for sale that reflected visible light, you would say, "So what!" The fact that my dubbing reflects light does not mean my dubbing MATCHES the color of the real insects. No where in the ad does it say that the Spirit River material actually matches the UV reflection of insects or baitfish. Just as in the visible spectrum, there are specific UV colors(wavelengths). To actually imitate the UV reflectivity of a food, the tying material has to reflect that UV wavelength and no other!

That leads to my belief that the Spirit River materials work primarily by fluorescence. By mixing fluorescent material into dubbing and adding fluorescence into natural materials, I think the Spirit River materials increase the visibility of flies tied with their materials.

If UV reflectance was the main reason they worked, we have been using a highly reflective UV material for decades. That is mylar tinsel. Mirrored materials reflect both visible and invisible light from infrared to ultraviolet.

Sun worshippers used to use these back in the 1960's to reflect both UVA and UVB radiation that causes stimulates melanin production and skin tanning.

Remember these?

I suggest this article on UV reflective and UV reactive (fluorescent) tying materials. Read the comments section as well. The comment by 1M1Ucla pretty much mirrors my thinking on the subject.

Shining a Light on UV Materials | MidCurrent

Reed Curry wrote a book on Trout and UV Vision and by extension promotes using UV reflecting materials for fly tying. The problem, as I have mentioned in the past, is how do we know what UV “color” to use when we cannot pick our the right “shade” of UV because we cannot see into the UV spectrum.

Read the comments on this blog to the interview of Reed Curry.

Ultra violet fly tying materials catch fish, Q&A with author Reed Curry | The Caddis Fly: Oregon Fly Fishing Blog

 

[whatfly]

If these materials did not work, Craig Matthews would not be offering them, in a number of his proven patterns, sold at Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone


PT/TB

To be fair, if Craig Matthews thought incorporating buffalo chips into his patterns would sell more flies, he would do so. Just saying...

 

[planettrout]

To be fair, if Craig Matthews thought incorporating buffalo chips into his patterns would sell more flies, he would do so. Just saying...

...fail...

PT/TB

 

[overmywaders]

All of our flies are tied with UV reflecting materials, some reflect more than others. For example, iridescent feathers absorb most of the ambient UV, thus peacock herl is dark in the UV. OTOH, natural white duck quills and teal flank feathers reflect most of the UV. Thus you have the Coachman, Zug Bug, Prince Nymph, etc..

A killer dry fly for many trout fishermen is the Adams. Natural grizzly hackle is really interesting in the UV.
Adams in visible light

Adams in ultraviolet light

Regarding how far UV penetrates water, the max depth recorded is 600 meters. You can see videos of SCUBA divers at greater than 200 feet in fairly turbid fresh water with their fluorescent patches and swim fins glowing.

Another fly that we use is the Royal Coachman in all its manifestations. If the hairwing Royal Coachman is tied with natural white bucktail or kip, the result looks like this in the UV -

So, we are always using UV materials. We just might want to use them in ways to emulate the natural insect in the UV.

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

Regarding that Eccles blog post, the distinction we need to make is that while mature trout may or may not retain some 15% UV specific cones in the dorsal temporal retina, it doesn't matter to us fishermen. Because the L, M, S (RGB) cones all support a secondary peak in the UV. Further, the rods of the retina used at dusk and nighttime are very sensitive to UV and the percentage of solar UV increases at dusk. So, we will let the scientists battle out the UV specific cone issue, they all agree that mature trout have UV input from the RGB cones.

BTW, whitetail deer have a huge percentage of rods in their retinas, all the better to see at dusk and dark when they do much of their feeding. And, yes, they are sensitive to UV. Which is handy, because that white tail warning flag is highly UV reflective, allowing the herd to follow the leader at top speed when fleeing from a predator in near dark conditions.

 

[arreflections]

I think confidence in a fly outweighs the latest marketing stuff. Confidence influences presentation. Presentation is key as a previous poster mentioned. Do you ever notice when yo up are using a confidence fly that you tend to focus on the retrieve a little more or that you may tend to slow the retrieve down a bit? When you are using a fly without high confidence then a tendency to rush the presentation to hurriedly dismiss the fly to change out for your confidence fly probably occurs. Just saying...

 

[markfrid]

I think confidence in a fly outweighs the latest marketing stuff. Confidence influences presentation. Presentation is key as a previous poster mentioned. Do you ever notice when yo up are using a confidence fly that you tend to focus on the retrieve a little more or that you may tend to slow the retrieve down a bit? When you are using a fly without high confidence then a tendency to rush the presentation to hurriedly dismiss the fly to change out for your confidence fly probably occurs. Just saying...

I think there's a whole lot of truth to this. Not that there may not be some advantage to uv materials. I don't know. Heck, this whole fly fishing thing is about confidence. We need to have a boatload of confidence when we expect all the junk we wrap around a hook to compete with moving, soft, scented, translucent, un-tethered bugs floating down the river! Whatever it takes - the more confident I am in the fly, the longer and more intently I tend to fish it.

Mark

 

[ts47]

Interesting thread. I'm glad the op posted his question.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[overmywaders]

I agree about confidence. I don't know why, but it makes so much difference.

I have put up a short essay about the matter of mature trout having vision in the ultraviolet. See Ultraviolet Vision in Trout