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Old 12-04-2014, 12:18 PM
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Default Changes in Mustad 9671??

So I just ordered a box of the "new" 9671 because I nearly ran out of my stockpile of old ones. When I got the box, I was shocked to see that, not only are they 1x longer than the original, but their sizing also doesn't match up. A size 16 of the old ones is almost exactly a size 18 of the new ones. Anyone have this same experience? I'm hoping I just got a bad box of them or something...

And if not, does anyone have a recommendation for a hook that more closely fits the dimensions of the original 9671?
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Well,it happens when one move manufacture from Norway to China
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Quote:
Originally Posted by madjoni View Post
Well,it happens when one move manufacture from Norway to China
I hate it, but I've given up on Mustad. Too much variation in quality. I've changed over to Tiemco and Daiichi only. More money, but I'm always happy with the hooks.

Mark
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Ted, go to Ebay & look up the seller hardydeluxe. (Search for Maruto in the fishing category.) He has Maruto 5262 hooks which are as close as you'll find to the 9671 and the prices are very reasonable. (Under $3 for 50 hooks.)

Maruto are made in Japan. Actually they're the oldest hook maker in Japan. Good hooks & much sharper than the older Mustad. I used them for many years when I tied commercially.

You might also check with Allen Fly Fishing to see if they have an equivalent.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

The Hooks I mainly use these days are either Tyeechy or Maruto & have had good results with them as Mustard became too hard to source also The others are heaps cheaper.
Brian
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Speaking of hooks, I came upon a stash of dry fly hooks in a tackle shop the other day. Ray Bergman hooks! Now, those go back a spell!

Jack
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

One alternative is to purchase the Mustads one size smaller. The price I see on the Marutos is per 25, not 50. The price difference isn't as heavily in favor of the later. They may both be good values; IMO, the Mustad is.

The hook you bought is the R73 signature. Mustad changed the label to R73-9671, and that may have been a mistake for tyers expecting a facsimile of the 9671. The improvements over the classic series make some Signature hooks in some sizes notably different.

Mustad markets the R73 as 3XL, but have you compared it to a classic 9671? I wonder if the relative shank length of one isn't very close to the other. The description given on the packaging isn't as telling.

Below is a classic 3906B #14 and its replacement S82 (but one size smaller).

Click the image to open in full size.

The classic 3906B was marketed as 1XL, while the S82 is sold as a 2XL hook. If you measure the shank:gape ratio of each, you'll see that the 3906B is actually longer in the shank than the S82 by a margin. This change in proportion could disappoint tyers looking for an exact replacement, but the difference isn't terribly significant.

You mentioned the R73 being a full size larger than its old counterpart. If you look at the above pic, you can see the #16 S82 has almost the same gape as the #14 classic. I guess the added gape would be a plus for some folks.

The primary reason I purchased some S82 hooks was to supplement my TMC 3761 hooks. I felt the S82 was a reasonable substitute. Here's the two hooks in #16:
Click the image to open in full size.

They appear fairly similar in that photo, though the Mustad is slightly larger and with heavier wire. The following pic shows it more clearly:
Click the image to open in full size.

Tiemco markets the 3761 as 1XL, but you can see the shank is proportionally longer than the 2XL Mustad. The S82 is very slightly longer than the 3761 in the same size but has a gape that's equivalent to the 3761 one size larger. Just as hook mfrs don't share the same sizing scale, they don't share the same standards for descriptions.

Finally here's a pic of the S82 (should read 3906B) and 3761, along with a Daiichi 1710, all in the same size
Click the image to open in full size.

The 1710 is marketed as 2XL, just like the S82, but you can see again that the length:gape ratio isn't close. Though the box may say "2XL," I'll still view the S82 as a 1XL hook, just like the 3906B. The Signature replacement for the classic 94840, the R50, also has a wider gape, though they run about one size shorter than Tiemco's model 100.

Although my primary trout hooks have been Tiemco (with some Daiichi and others), I've been tying more and more on Mustad Sig hooks since my first purchase in ~2007. I have conservatively gone through well over 1000 Signature hooks with only one defective hook to date (a malformed eye). That's right up there with my experience with brands T and D. I attribute the criticisms on quality to tyers' experiences with the old Mustad products. The Sigs are sharp, strong, consistent and well made. My only complaint would be that the finish isn't as quite as glass smooth as that of TMC; but, ironically, that did improve when their origin of manufacture went to China. And I wish Mustad offered a couple more styles.
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Quote:
The price I see on the Marutos is per 25, not 50.
Audax, if you go the the Ebay store of hardydeluxe & search his site, there are listings for the model 5262/9671 2xl hooks in 50 counts in some sizes. There are also listings for 25 counts. However, as I went back & checked not all the listings for that model show as Maruto brand, so you may be correct.

Still, I don't feel anyone looking for a replacement to the old Mustad 9671 would be disappointed in what that fellow sells.

You're comparisons of those Mustads & TMC hooks is interesting. I note too that the S82 is a forged hook, while the older 3906 was not.

It appears that the TMC 3761 is also not forged, at least it doesn't look to be from your pics. That may be the reason the 3906 looks to be a heavier wire. Some of Mustad's older styles that were not forged were often a slightly heavier wire since a forged hook is usually a bit stronger than a non-forged of similar size.

The old Mustad 9671 was a forged hook. Don't know if that would make any difference to anyone or not.
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

bigjim, the S82 is indeed forged, unlike the classic 3906/B or 3761, but it's also XXX stout. Since not all the fish I hook are over 20" <laugh>, the 3761 is plenty robust for me.

$6 for 50 nice hooks should be a good value today, regardless of manufacture. I did look at that seller's store but became disinterested after seeing pics of Daiichi hooks used to market off-brand/unbranded hooks.
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Old 12-12-2014, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Changes in Mustad 9671??

Quote:
Originally Posted by audax View Post
One alternative is to purchase the Mustads one size smaller. The price I see on the Marutos is per 25, not 50. The price difference isn't as heavily in favor of the later. They may both be good values; IMO, the Mustad is.

The hook you bought is the R73 signature. Mustad changed the label to R73-9671, and that may have been a mistake for tyers expecting a facsimile of the 9671. The improvements over the classic series make some Signature hooks in some sizes notably different.

Mustad markets the R73 as 3XL, but have you compared it to a classic 9671? I wonder if the relative shank length of one isn't very close to the other. The description given on the packaging isn't as telling.

Below is a classic 3906B #14 and its replacement S82 (but one size smaller).

Click the image to open in full size.

The classic 3906B was marketed as 1XL, while the S82 is sold as a 2XL hook. If you measure the shank:gape ratio of each, you'll see that the 3906B is actually longer in the shank than the S82 by a margin. This change in proportion could disappoint tyers looking for an exact replacement, but the difference isn't terribly significant.

You mentioned the R73 being a full size larger than its old counterpart. If you look at the above pic, you can see the #16 S82 has almost the same gape as the #14 classic. I guess the added gape would be a plus for some folks.

The primary reason I purchased some S82 hooks was to supplement my TMC 3761 hooks. I felt the S82 was a reasonable substitute. Here's the two hooks in #16:
Click the image to open in full size.

They appear fairly similar in that photo, though the Mustad is slightly larger and with heavier wire. The following pic shows it more clearly:
Click the image to open in full size.

Tiemco markets the 3761 as 1XL, but you can see the shank is proportionally longer than the 2XL Mustad. The S82 is very slightly longer than the 3761 in the same size but has a gape that's equivalent to the 3761 one size larger. Just as hook mfrs don't share the same sizing scale, they don't share the same standards for descriptions.

Finally here's a pic of the S82 (should read 3906B) and 3761, along with a Daiichi 1710, all in the same size
Click the image to open in full size.

The 1710 is marketed as 2XL, just like the S82, but you can see again that the length:gape ratio isn't close. Though the box may say "2XL," I'll still view the S82 as a 1XL hook, just like the 3906B. The Signature replacement for the classic 94840, the R50, also has a wider gape, though they run about one size shorter than Tiemco's model 100.

Although my primary trout hooks have been Tiemco (with some Daiichi and others), I've been tying more and more on Mustad Sig hooks since my first purchase in ~2007. I have conservatively gone through well over 1000 Signature hooks with only one defective hook to date (a malformed eye). That's right up there with my experience with brands T and D. I attribute the criticisms on quality to tyers' experiences with the old Mustad products. The Sigs are sharp, strong, consistent and well made. My only complaint would be that the finish isn't as quite as glass smooth as that of TMC; but, ironically, that did improve when their origin of manufacture went to China. And I wish Mustad offered a couple more styles.
First, thank you for the thorough comparison and explanation, Audax. Seriously, this is why I come to this forum so much (because there are truly helpful, knowledgeable people here). I have some leftover size 16 old 9671's and the new signature 9671 in size 16. The hook gap is clearly larger, what I would call nearly a full hook size up (equivalent to an old 9671 size 14). As far as hook shank, it appears to be close to a true 1xl larger than the old 9671. When I am home later tonight, I will measure out both and post on here. My main concern with this the old mustad was a smaller, thinner wired hook. It tied a nice, small pheasant tail for the spooky, narrow streams in the Driftless area. The Signature 9671 is now a thicker, larger profiled hook that I am afraid will turn more fish off. I will say I have liked the new Signature series 9671 for some of the larger patterns like Prince Nymphs and I think it's also a good Copper John hook as well.

Measurements a little later.
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