Is it the pattern or the presentation??

[busbus]

I have been doing a lot reading during these dark, damp, cold winter days and have read some interesting things. The more I read, the more I have been seeing a running theme that too many of us tend to switch flies when we aren't catching anything. Instead, we should be paying more attention to how we are presenting whatever fly we have tied at the end of our line.

At first, I dismissed this because I wanted to believe the reason I don't catch enough fish is because I don't know what fly to use when. Or, maybe it is my line or leader. Or maybe even the rod.

It could be a thousand different things but the one thing I usually left out was me. Not just my (bad) casting ability but by casting too much and to the wrong spots and at the wrong time. But it is also my lack of presentation skills and the fact that I am a novice at, well, everything. It's okay to be a novice but I was focusing on and changing the wrong things.

If I look back at the many questions I have asked here over the past couple years, I see so many times that the most experienced guys were trying to tell me to focus on fishing the fly right instead of trying to figure out which fly to use in a certain situation. The suggestion was made that every fly can catch fish, especially the classics, and if I was not catching fish, it wasn't the fly I chose.

I cannot believe it has taken me this long to figure this out. So, I would like to add to a thread that has been going around about New Years resolutions. I want to say that I am going to stick to a minimum number of fly patterns all year and learn how to fish them right.

I want to see if I can tie a fly on when I get started and take the same one off several hours later--hopefully with a number of fish in-between.

I resolve to go out with the notion of it being practice and, if I catch something, it will be because I have been practicing correctly.

I am going to simplify my life by concentrating on tying only a limited number of patterns and not worry about the next greatest thing that shows up. I believe this will make me a much better tyer (sp?) and will actually make it worthwhile to tie my own flies! No more buying a bunch of this or that and using only 1/1,000,000th of it. The patterns I choose may not be the patterns others choose but they will be the ones that I am going to use and perfect.

These are pretty lofty goals, now that I read over them again but I am going to work hard at actually doing this. It will be a Dickens sticking to this, I know, but I have finally come to believe that is the only way I am ever going to get better at this. There are a lot more things I need to learn and get better at but, unless I get these basics down pat, I will never get to the next level.


Finally, I want to thank all of you experienced fly fishes out there who patiently and thoroughly answer any and all questions. We novices will get it at some point. So stick with us!



ray

 

[zug buggin]

the wrong fly presented correctly will always out fish the right fly presented incorrectly

 

[pszy22]

Basically two approaches - you can make a fly that looks good enough to eat, or present a fly that acts good enough to eat.

When we talk about what triggers a fish to take a fly, in my mind, alot of junk and **** comes floating down a stream/river. If it moves, it's got to be alive. Sticks, weeds and cigarette butts never twitch or quiver, but live stuff does. If I can imitate that twitch or quiver, the fish may not know exactly what my fly is, but it will think it has to be something alive.

 

[james w 3 3]

Basically two approaches - you can make a fly that looks good enough to eat, or present a fly that acts good enough to eat.

When we talk about what triggers a fish to take a fly, in my mind, alot of junk and **** comes floating down a stream/river. If it moves, it's got to be alive. Sticks, weeds and cigarette butts never twitch or quiver, but live stuff does. If I can imitate that twitch or quiver, the fish may not know exactly what my fly is, but it will think it has to be something alive.

Isn't that the core principle of Tenkara?

 

[old timer]

When you get to the point when you can always offer a good presentation.

It doesn't hurt to use the right fly too.

 

[honyuk96]

I have been doing a lot reading during these dark, damp, cold winter days and have read some interesting things. The more I read, the more I have been seeing a running theme that too many of us tend to switch flies when we aren't catching anything. Instead, we should be paying more attention to how we are presenting whatever fly we have tied at the end of our line.

At first, I dismissed this because I wanted to believe the reason I don't catch enough fish is because I don't know what fly to use when. Or, maybe it is my line or leader. Or maybe even the rod.

It could be a thousand different things but the one thing I usually left out was me. Not just my (bad) casting ability but by casting too much and to the wrong spots and at the wrong time. But it is also my lack of presentation skills and the fact that I am a novice at, well, everything. It's okay to be a novice but I was focusing on and changing the wrong things.

If I look back at the many questions I have asked here over the past couple years, I see so many times that the most experienced guys were trying to tell me to focus on fishing the fly right instead of trying to figure out which fly to use in a certain situation. The suggestion was made that every fly can catch fish, especially the classics, and if I was not catching fish, it wasn't the fly I chose.

I cannot believe it has taken me this long to figure this out. So, I would like to add to a thread that has been going around about New Years resolutions. I want to say that I am going to stick to a minimum number of fly patterns all year and learn how to fish them right.

I want to see if I can tie a fly on when I get started and take the same one off several hours later--hopefully with a number of fish in-between.

I resolve to go out with the notion of it being practice and, if I catch something, it will be because I have been practicing correctly.

I am going to simplify my life by concentrating on tying only a limited number of patterns and not worry about the next greatest thing that shows up. I believe this will make me a much better tyer (sp?) and will actually make it worthwhile to tie my own flies! No more buying a bunch of this or that and using only 1/1,000,000th of it. The patterns I choose may not be the patterns others choose but they will be the ones that I am going to use and perfect.

These are pretty lofty goals, now that I read over them again but I am going to work hard at actually doing this. It will be a Dickens sticking to this, I know, but I have finally come to believe that is the only way I am ever going to get better at this. There are a lot more things I need to learn and get better at but, unless I get these basics down pat, I will never get to the next level.


Finally, I want to thank all of you experienced fly fishes out there who patiently and thoroughly answer any and all questions. We novices will get it at some point. So stick with us!



ray

First off, excellent post. I'd like to add this if I may. 85% of what a trout eats happens subsurface. No brainer, fish more nymphs, catch more fish. If you just filled your box w Adams dries and hares ear nymphs you'd be on the right track for both risers and nymph eaters. Best of luck practicing.

 

[rangerrich99]

Five or six years ago I read an interesting article about a late, famous fly tier and fisherman (couldn't tell you his name right now, but he was considered one of the 'giants' in our obsession). Anyway, his flies were all attractor style patterns, not true imitations of any one insect, but each with many similarities to many insects. And as for color, (I'll paraphrase here, as I don't remember the exact quote) he said something like, "I tie my flies in all colors, as long as they're black, brown, or grey."

I've taken the gist of that article to heart in my fly fishing. I might be the worst of my fellow fly fishermen at matching the hatch, but I'm probably the best of my group at finding that presentation that coaxes the fish into hitting my fly.

I like your idea of paring your fly selection down to a minimum and trying to perfect your presentation skills. I do something very similar in my fishing and it's always worked out for me. And if you're interested, I can give you my "Minimum Fly List" sometime.

Peace.

P.S. You might try watching old bass fishing shows that focus on "how to" fish a particular lure to give you some ideas. Obviously, you're not going to fish a bugger like a lipless crank bait, but these old pros will show you a dozen different ways to fish a single lure. And even if you can't exactly fish a fly the same way, you might get an idea of how to fish a fly differently than you ever thought of before. Anyway, as a former baitcastin' bass fisherman, I can tell you that when it comes to inventing new ways to fish a fly, that's directly where my inventiveness comes from.

 

[mtbusman]

I have to agree with much that has been said -- presentation is far the most important, but as another poster added, it doesn't hurt to have a good fly, too.

I carry way too much in my vest. Four fly boxes, bunch of other stuff. However, for general fishing, summer to winter, I usually fish six different flies. The others are in the boxes for the outings when one of the six wasn't working. Quite often, when that happens, nothing works! (but, to be honest, I've got an idea for something new to try when the trout are sipping tiny pseudos and ignoring everything else )

That said, there are some special times in special places, where I do some hatch matching -- but even then, I've got some terrestrials for when the hatch ain't happening.

All that being said, most of the time, I can get by with just a few flies, as long as I fish them right.

Presentation is the key, or as a mentor told me many years ago, "line control is the most important thing in fly fishing." I think it's true, for if you can't properly control your line through casting and mending, and other variations, you can't make good presentations.

 

[pszy22]

Isn't that the core principle of Tenkara?

I talk to alot of folks regarding fishing. At first glance it's surprising how often someone will tell me - I caught more fish this weekend using a tenkara rod than I did all last week/month/year.

Same people, fishing the same places, using the same flies. What's different? A setup which makes it impossible for them to see just how far they can cast. That in turn has them fishing a short line which they can control, which in turn allows for a decent presentation.

I believe 90% of the success folks enjoy using a fixed-length line system is due to the fact that it eliminates the bad habit of fishing too much line. Too much line means loss of control, which in turn leads to alot of casting, and not much catching. You can do much the same thing with a reeled rod, if you have the discipline. But that is sometimes easier said than done. It's so alluring to just strip a bit more line off the reel.

 

[busbus]

I believe 90% of the success folks enjoy using a fixed-length line system is due to the fact that it eliminates the bad habit of fishing too much line. Too much line means loss of control, which in turn leads to alot of casting, and not much catching. You can do much the same thing with a reeled rod, if you have the discipline. But that is sometimes easier said than done. It's so alluring to just strip a bit more line off the reel.

I agree. We have spoken before about Tenkara and the more I thought of it, the more I realized the fact that Tenkara "works" is precisely the thing that seems like a hindrance: you are constantly working the exact same amount of line. And you need to make it work all the time.

Then I came to the understanding that you have to pay very close attention to everything you are doing with Tenkara and it is precisely this focus that makes Tenkara so productive.

I now you and any others have encouraged me to get a Tenkara rod--and I still might--but I figured I can do much the same thing with my fly rod. I will mark my line at a particular length and work to keep that amount of line out and fish the fly rod like it were a Tenkara rod. I know it will not be exactly the same but the principal will be the same.

The thing is the discipline. You are forced to be more disciplined with Tenkara rod but that is exactly what you need to do with a fly rod, too. And it is why the best fly fishers are the the best: they have more focus, they are more aware, and they are more disciplined. That is also why you do not need a prolific amount of different patterns: because it is much more about how the fly is fished than the fly that is used.



ray

 

[bradyb]

Presentation is paramount, but with that said, I believe the way the fly presents itself can be equally important (this is in reference to swinging for steelhead, particularly winter fish). I catch way more fish on flies that exhibit great movement all on their own than I do on flies that have less inherent movement. Now maybe that's because I'm not Bill McMillian and I have room for improvement with my presentation, but I really think some of the swimming characteristics of a fly can play a vital role in enticing a strike. Specific patterns and colors are most likely more of a factor to the angler's eye and his confidence, rather than the fish's decision.

With trout fishing, I think the pattern can play a bigger role, but again, the right pattern is useless without the right presentation.

 

[pszy22]

.

I now you and any others have encouraged me to get a Tenkara rod--and I still might--but I figured I can do much the same thing with my fly rod.

ray

I don't think you should, or shouldn't necessarily buy any more equipment. I'm willing to bet you can catch fish with the equipment you currently own. If you want to get another rod, that's great, but there is no particular need to do so.

Unfortunately there is no magic silver bullet rod, fly or anything else that always works when nothing else does.


---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

With trout fishing, I think the pattern can play a bigger role, but again, the right pattern is useless without the right presentation.

In certain situations, I agree. More often than not, I don't think so.

There was a guy name Carl Richards, he happened to be one of the most influential writers of his day. Two of his most influential books are Selective Trout and Fly Fishing Strategy. He was a master of insect identification and imitation.

What was most interesting, in his later years, he fished one fly pattern the majority of his time spent fishing. He called it the greatest wet fly pattern ever tied. It's a pattern called a Chicago Leech. Nothing more than a couple of winds of mohair yarn on a beaded head hook.

 

[spm]

Excellent post, bus.
I too have the same problem and have been mulling the same question; my presentation. And judging from the responses, you have hit on the answer. Thank you for posting this.

steve

 

[mtbusman]

There was a guy name Carl Richards, in his later years, he fished one fly pattern the majority of his time spent fishing. It's a pattern called a Chicago Leech. Nothing more than a couple of winds of mohair yarn on a beaded head hook.

I love it!

I had not heard this about Richards.

Obviously, the truth to this whole thing is that both presentation and fly choice are very important. Have both of these working, you're going to do well. But it also depends on where and when you fish . . .

When I first began fishing the Missouri in winter, I fished buggers almost exclusively. It was a lot of fun. I could have left the other flies at home back in those days. Then I turned to nymphing in the winter, but still I only needed a couple of patterns. Getting the right drift of the fly is more important than the pattern, because the greatest pattern in the world isn't going to work if it's not presented properly.

But if I go to a spring creek in the summer to fish the hatches, that ups the ante a bit. Fly choice is very important there -- but presentation is even more important when you're sight fishing for big fish in clear water.

---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Further thoughts . . . a little more philosophical in nature:

I know a woman who went into a fly shop to buy a rod for her husband for Christmas. He is only beginning to learn to fish. She knows very little about fly fishing. She asked the guy in the shop to help her pick out a rod. He listened and made a suggestion and showed her a rod. Before the wife bought the rod for her husband, she asked the guy in the shop, "will this rod catch fish?" The fly shop guy answered, "well, I could catch fish with it . . . "

I think a lot of people look at fishing like my friend. I call it magical thinking.

You know, it's like magic. You go to a lake or a stream, you tie bait, lure, or fly on the end of you line, you throw it out there -- and eventually, if you are lucky, a fish eats it or attacks it, you catch the fish and feel pretty good.

I call this magical thinking because with some people, when I try to explain how the fish live and why they do things or don't do things, my listeners get impatient and express the opinion that I'm really over thinking it. They seem to think that fishing is about using the right stuff, having a bit of luck involved, and pulling some fish out of the water as a result. And that's it.

The interesting thing for me is that, with the magical thinking, you don't have to think too much about what you're doing and you get to stay on the outside, looking in, of the world of the fish.


On the other hand, when we learn about the fish and their behavior, we can enter into the trout's world, maybe a little bit. We can become participants in a natural process, rather than spectators. Say the trout are eating emergers, right below the surface. We choose our fly, we rig it so it will partially sink, but not too much, we cast our line, we get a nice drift, drifting the fly right down to the fish -- and if the trout takes our fly we have become a participant with the fish in its feeding process. We are one more element in what's going on in the trout's world that day. It's not luck, or magic, it's something we are doing, knowingly and intentionally, to hook a fish. And we are doing it, not the rod, or the line, or the leader, or the fly.

Probably most of us who choose fish with flies and fly tackle do so because we want to put some thought into it, even become engrossed in it -- we want that connection between ourselves and the natural world. Or maybe we love the art of the cast itself -- there are many ingredients that make fly fishing so rewarding. As I try to explain to friends, with fly fishing, it isn't so much that you caught a fish, it's how you caught it.

But I still have to say, sometimes, after all the planning and careful execution, when a fish comes up on one's fly, and you hook it -- it still seems a little magical. I never get tired of it.

 

[Walter1023]

I hope you realize that all the answers received thus far are mere "OPINION"...none are actually fact....which really bothers me as many here hold themselves out to be experts.

I believe the correct generally accepted factual answer is as follows:

100% SUCCESS EQUATION = PROPER PRESENTATION (72.5%) plus PROPER PATTERN (17.5%) plus DUMB LUCK (10%)

 

[bigjim5589]

Mtbusman, great post! :worthy:

This entire thread has been worth the reading & the input is spot on.

I won't say much about the subject, except to add a different perspective.

IMO, confidence is the most important aspect of successful fishing. No matter how much we learn, if we lack the confidence to utilize the knowledge, we're not going to be as successful as those who will.

Much of fishing is mental. If you think the fish are smarter than you are, then they certainly will be! Confidence in one's abilities or skills is also mental. It's certainly possible to over think this sport, but lack of confidence will not allow us to think or act clearly. It won't matter what fly you choose or presentation you attempt, if there is doubt in your mind you won't present the fly in the manner as you might when you have confidence in what you're doing. Doubt is your enemy.

Of course an angler with more experience can often overcome doubts & find success, while those new to the sport may struggle because of those doubts. It's usually the doubts that cause us to change flies frequently. There's nothing wrong with changing flies, but it should be done for the right purpose.
I've learned to make every cast the most important cast I can make. That means I have to concentrate & work at it. Not always an easy task.

In the end, the entire process of fly selection & presentation has to done with some degree of confidence in one's abilities if we expect to have success before we make the first cast.

IMO, fly selection & how we present it are skills we learn with success. Although failures can often teach us more than success. It's easy to feel good about yourself & your fishing when you have success, but not so much when you don't.

Unfortunately, as said there's no guarantee with the best of either fly selection or presentations we will be successful, but it's much easier if there is confidence we can catch whatever fish we target.

At some point in my fly fishing endeavor, I made a conscious effort to become a student of the sport and I'm still learning. I decided that I am smarter than any fish that swims & thus began my journey to having more successes than failures. I don't always catch fish or numbers or the biggest, that's just the way it is & I'm fine with that. It's part of the game & no one always wins a game. On any given day, if there are fish present, I have confidence in myself enough to know that they can be caught. The rest of the process then becomes secondary.

 

[pszy22]

"Always cast your fly with confidence" Theodore Gordon (1914)

BigJim,

You hit the over ridding secret for success, square on the head. When you have confidence in what you are doing, you are sure the fish of a lifetime is about to hit your fly right now. You are paying attention and are focused.

Without confidence, you know you aren't going to catch anything anyways. What difference does it make if I get a little sloppy or get a little lazy.

Of course, sometimes gaining or maintaining confidence is easier said than done.

 

[old timer]

I hope you realize that all the answers received thus far are mere "OPINION"...none are actually fact....which really bothers me as many here hold themselves out to be experts.

I believe the correct generally accepted factual answer is as follows:

100% SUCCESS EQUATION = PROPER PRESENTATION (72.5%) plus PROPER PATTERN (17.5%) plus DUMB LUCK (10%)

60 years of experience gives some credibility to an opinion.

Your opinion is good too.

 

[silver creek]

I have been doing a lot reading during these dark, damp, cold winter days and have read some interesting things. The more I read, the more I have been seeing a running theme that too many of us tend to switch flies when we aren't catching anything. Instead, we should be paying more attention to how we are presenting whatever fly we have tied at the end of our line.

At first, I dismissed this because I wanted to believe the reason I don't catch enough fish is because I don't know what fly to use when. Or, maybe it is my line or leader. Or maybe even the rod.

It could be a thousand different things but the one thing I usually left out was me. Not just my (bad) casting ability but by casting too much and to the wrong spots and at the wrong time. But it is also my lack of presentation skills and the fact that I am a novice at, well, everything. It's okay to be a novice but I was focusing on and changing the wrong things.

If I look back at the many questions I have asked here over the past couple years, I see so many times that the most experienced guys were trying to tell me to focus on fishing the fly right instead of trying to figure out which fly to use in a certain situation. The suggestion was made that every fly can catch fish, especially the classics, and if I was not catching fish, it wasn't the fly I chose.

I cannot believe it has taken me this long to figure this out. So, I would like to add to a thread that has been going around about New Years resolutions. I want to say that I am going to stick to a minimum number of fly patterns all year and learn how to fish them right.

I want to see if I can tie a fly on when I get started and take the same one off several hours later--hopefully with a number of fish in-between.

I resolve to go out with the notion of it being practice and, if I catch something, it will be because I have been practicing correctly.

I am going to simplify my life by concentrating on tying only a limited number of patterns and not worry about the next greatest thing that shows up. I believe this will make me a much better tyer (sp?) and will actually make it worthwhile to tie my own flies! No more buying a bunch of this or that and using only 1/1,000,000th of it. The patterns I choose may not be the patterns others choose but they will be the ones that I am going to use and perfect.

These are pretty lofty goals, now that I read over them again but I am going to work hard at actually doing this. It will be a Dickens sticking to this, I know, but I have finally come to believe that is the only way I am ever going to get better at this. There are a lot more things I need to learn and get better at but, unless I get these basics down pat, I will never get to the next level.


Finally, I want to thank all of you experienced fly fishes out there who patiently and thoroughly answer any and all questions. We novices will get it at some point. So stick with us!

ray

That is an Interesting essay Busbus. You have posed a question. Is it pattern or presentation?

Allow me to dig a bit deeper into the question you have posed as a way of getting you to think a bit differently.

May I ask what definition of presentation are you using? And depending on your definition of presentation, may I ask you to finish your question. Is it pattern or presentation ……….

…that is responsible for success?
…that is responsible for failure?
…that is more important as to __________ (fill in the blank)
…that is most important in __________ (fill in nymphing, dry fly fishing, wet fly fishing, streamer fishing,etc)

By the dichotomy of pattern vs presentation and your statement that you are going to concentrate more on presentation than pattern, you have decided that it is an either or proposition. You need to stop concentrating on pattern to concentrate on bettering your presentation.

My opinion is that this is a false dichotomy. It is like a linebacker concentrating on stopping the run and ignoring the skill of dropping back into pass coverage.

Fly fishing is a holistic process. The division of presentation and fly selection can be seen as separate parts. I do not believe this needs to be so.

Gary Borger wrote one of the best fly fishing books called, Presentation. The reason he called it Presentation, is that he believed “presentation” was everything that the fly fisher does and every choice the fly fisher makes including fly choice. It is everything that has an effect on his success or failure.

If you take this view of “presentation”, then fly pattern is a part of presentation and there is no dichotomy. I believe and Gary believes that the all the choices affect your success. For example, the place you chose to cast from is normally not a part of what is normally called presentation, but it can affect your success greatly.

Another example is that the first fish you choose to target in a pod of feeding fish WILL affect your chances of hooking the other fish. This is normally not a part of presentation, but it can arguably be more important that the actual presentation; because if you choose the wrong first fish, there may not be others still feeding to present to.

I understand that this concept may not “fit” into a preconceived notion of the separation of presentation and pattern. If you fail to hook the fish, the holistic view of presentation allows you to examine all the possible changes you could have made that would have led to success.

I understand that this may be all too overwhelming; and like when you are learning to cast, you may feel like you need to separate the backcast from the forward cast. But remember that in casting, the success of the cast depends on both a good backcast and forward cast. We do not separate the backcast from the forward cast as one is more important than the other to success.

The weakest link is always the one that fails. Like links in a chain, every link must do its part for there to be success. What you are really saying is that for you at this time, casting and delivering the fly is the weakest link and needs the most work. But remember, that when that cast and float is spot on, the fly at the end must be able to fool the fish. Not all patterns can do that well in every situation.

My advice to you is to make sure you have enough flies with you to use the correct fly as well as the ability to deliver the fly satisfactorily.

How can you otherwise tell if your presentation was good enough to catch the fish. Said another way, if the fish refuses because of the fly, how will you know that it was not your presentation. The only way you can be relatively sure you need to better your presentation is if you have a great deal of confidence that you have the right fly that the fish will not refuse. But that is the part of the equation you are choosing to put on the back burner.

There is a similar discussion going on the Fly tying forum about the best pattern.

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=80200

Lastly, here is a discussion by some "experts". You will note that the value of the pattern vs presentation varies according to there they fish. I agree.

http://midcurrent.com/experts/imitation-or-presentation/

 

[Walter1023]

60 years of experience gives some credibility to an opinion.

Your opinion is good too.

My poor attempt at dry humor when I cant wet a flyline. The fact is those percentages are subject to change.