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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

i finally got my tailing loops fixed so to speak. i started casting very straight handed and over head while practicing and i was doing pretty well. got down to the coast and my guide changed me all up lol. he got up on the platform with my rod and gave me some tips and let me watch him cast. he uses less forearm and much more wrist than i do, however he keeps the tip on a SLP. he also keeps his arm close to his body and casts more sidearm-ish than straight up over his head. yes, hes got about 20 more years of experience than me, but he was casting into my backing and it was impressive. i realized that this is how i always see ppl cast on tv/youtube when fly fishing in salt water. i tried it out and although it was a little different i liked that method a lot. i was able to handle the wind easier and cast farther all while throwing very few tailing loops.

seems as though you can basically do whatever you want in terms of wrist movement, as long as the tip travels in a SLP, and you won't have tailing loops? assuming your hauling at the right time and stuff also.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjackh View Post
i finally got my tailing loops fixed so to speak. i started casting very straight handed and over head while practicing and i was doing pretty well. got down to the coast and my guide changed me all up lol. he got up on the platform with my rod and gave me some tips and let me watch him cast. he uses less forearm and much more wrist than i do, however he keeps the tip on a SLP. he also keeps his arm close to his body and casts more sidearm-ish than straight up over his head. yes, hes got about 20 more years of experience than me, but he was casting into my backing and it was impressive. i realized that this is how i always see ppl cast on tv/youtube when fly fishing in salt water. i tried it out and although it was a little different i liked that method a lot. i was able to handle the wind easier and cast farther all while throwing very few tailing loops.

seems as though you can basically do whatever you want in terms of wrist movement, as long as the tip travels in a SLP, and you won't have tailing loops? assuming your hauling at the right time and stuff also.
Yep. Tailing loops have everything to do with how you accelerate through the casting stroke and nothing to do with angle of the casting plane.

That said, I'm much more likely to throw tailing loops when casting straight overhead compared to casting at a 45 degree angle. I can't exactly explain why, That's why the "book under the arm" technique is worthless for me.

I try to cast more with horizontal pulls and shoves, and keep my hand below my shoulder.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

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seems as though you can basically do whatever you want in terms of wrist movement, as long as the tip travels in a SLP, and you won't have tailing loops? assuming your hauling at the right time and stuff also.
Lets assume your previous backcast was great and the line is stretched out straight behind exactly horizontally . The objective it to then achieve a straight line tip path that is also perfectly horizontal.

If your line is angled up behind you, and you achieve perfect SLP on your forward cast but it is angled up 5 degrees in front of you, you will likely throw a tailing loop. This is why so many surf casters who fish areas with high beaches behind them use short shooting heads that don't reach the beach behind them on the backcast.

So the objective is for the trajectory of the SLP to be a continuation of the line behind you. Trajectories can be changed easily when false casting short lengths of line by opening the loop, shortening or lengthening your pause, and making pretty radical changes quickly without tails. But your trajectory should be establilshed as soon as possible when distance casting so you can tune your stroke length, haul and turnaround timing to achieve SLP that is in a direct line with your previous backcast.

Most of this is entirely unnecessary for fishing, but I sense a dangerous distance disturbance bouncing around your head, and if it takes root, some of what I'm saying may make sense to you later.

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

I think that Ed Jaworowski's book "Troubleshooting The Cast" would be a very gook help to you, it was for me. It covers just about every error you can make fly fishing an how to diagnose it. I think it is well worth a look. I now almost strictly fly fish even in the surf. And love it!
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

Great advice, guys! Helped me out a lot, too.
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

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Originally Posted by BigCliff View Post
Here's an illustration of what they're describing-

Click the image to open in full size.

See what I'm referring to by "concave path of the rod tip"?

The "tail" in "tailing loop" refers to the shape of the loop, not what is done with the rod after the forward cast is complete.
I agree with what you have written previously about the causes of a tailing loop. I also like the illustration above and want to expand on it a bit.

The reason that the rod tip goes in a concave path is because the rod is a flexible lever, with the emphasis on flexible. Most new casters assume that the rod tip remains at a fixed length from the caster's hand. It does not.

When a fly rod bends, it shortens according to the amount of power or acceleration applied to it. It is this shortening that is responsible for the concave path. A rod that shortens during the cast will bring the rod tip closer to the casting hand. Unless the stroke path of the casting hand is convex AND/OR the angle of the rod in the hand is adjusted for this shortening, the rod tip will follow a concave path.


The illustration below shows what happens when there is a sudden early application of power that causes the rod to shorten and the rod tip to dip. Notice the that the reel is going in a level path and so the rod tip dips toward the reel.

Click the image to open in full size.




The following illustrations show this rod shortening and the convex path the stroke path must follow to compensate and keep the rod tip level. Notice that as the "effective rod length" shortens, the reel follows a convex path to compensate. In this illustration the reel goes up to prevent the rod tip from dipping down as the rod shortens.

Click the image to open in full size.





In the illustration below we can see that depending on how far we are casting, we need to adjust both the stroke length of the rod and the convexity of the stroke path to compensate for the greater rod shortening on the longer stroke. Notice the up/down motion of the elbow and the flexion/extension at the elbow that causes the rod handle to follow a convex path.

Click the image to open in full size.



In this high speed stop motion study, we see the actual bending of the rod and the stroke path of the hand, elbow, and shoulder. This compact overhead stroke is the foundation stroke that the FFF suggests as a beginning stroke. It is the same stroke that forms the basis for the teaching and casting of Mel Krieger, Gary and Jason Borger. This stroke is identical to the prior drawing.


Click the image to open in full size.


Think of the elbow as the center of a circle and the forearm as the radius of the circle. As the elbow bends and unbends, the hand automatically follows the arc of the circumference in a convex path. The same thing happens at the shoulder joint so we have two convex motions added together to create an automatic convex rod tip path. Now choose a rod of the correct flexibility and your body anatomy automatically compensates for the rod shortening.

How remarkable is that? I happen to think that this correlation of body anatomy and stroke is the reason that some fly fishers seem to find a rod that just fits their casting stroke.
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

Silver, that is some serious diagrammatic detail you've gone to! And it's making me wish I had my fly rod here. I know I'll be returning to this thread once I get home and have my rod in hand.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

I found a graphic of the basic casting stroke on Gary Borger's Blog.

Gary Borger Blog Archive Casting From the Shoulder

It is the basic casting stroke that Gary Borger taught me and it is the basic cast that Jason Borger recommends in his book, Nature of Flycasting.

Examine the series of photos and illustrations below. Note that the casting stroke drawing of Gary Borger and the actual casting demo by Jason Borger are identical in their starting and stopping position.


Click the image to open in full size.


If you look very closely at the photo below, Jason has modified his hand position a bit from Gary's. His hand is actually against his forehead. It is Jason's method of illustrating that you must not take the hand back too far. By using his forehead as a stop, you cannot flop the rod backward in a "windshield wiper" stroke.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

If you compare the casting stroke above to the stop motion photo below will see that this is the exact cast that the angler is making.

Click the image to open in full size.


The stop motion photo comes from the Henry's Fork Lodge owned by Nelson Ishiyama. Nelson and I are college buddies, and he is the editor of Mel Krieger's book, The Essence of Flycasting.

It is also the foundation cast that the Rajeff brothers use as their fishing casts. As a youth, Steve Rajeff was taught by Mel Krieger.


The Secret to an Easy Cast | The Henry's Fork Fly Fishing Lodge

Lou Lanwermeyer comments, "I was fascinated and discouraged. Could it be this simple? Why hadn’t I ever seen this before? How long would it take to forget all my other habits – some not all that good – to learn this new style?"

The answer is that it is that simple and it gets even simpler. The diagram below comes from a casting chart by Gary Borger. You hang the chart against the wall, and stand next to it so that you can follow the stroke path. It is the chart for a right handed caster. Turn your body to the left so that your right side faces the computer screen.

The stroke path is a simple triangle with the stroke on the diagonal, you begin with the rod at "C", lift your right hand to "A" with a hard stop. That is the back cast stroke. Then you pause. The forward cast is the stroke line from "A" to "B" with a hard stop at "B". The you lower the rod to "C" following the the fly line to the water.

Position "B" about half way between "A" and "C".

To false cast you tilt the stroke line so that it is more parallel to the ground.


Click the image to open in full size.


The final part of the casting stroke is loop formation. If the rod tip truly follows a SLP (straight line path), at the stop, the fly line will hit the rod tip. So there needs to be a slight flick of the wrist just before the stop to move the rod tip out of way, below the path of the following fly line. Doug Swisher calls this wrist flick a "micro wrist". The greater the flick, the wider the loop. The following illustration from Jason's book illustrated the relationship between the flick and loop formation.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: throwing tailing loops like crazy

Here's an idea... hook up with a skilled fly casting instructor and get a few lessons.
Instead of guessing as to what causes your tailing loops they can instantly assess your cast and show you the remedy. Then when you practice you will be practicing proper form and power application.

There are quite a few certified instructors in Texas. It really would be worth your effort to find one near you. Your learning curve will be quite short and your parctice time far more productive than flailing about endlessly as in fixing one casting issue only to create another.
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