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Old 05-27-2011, 10:12 AM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Creep

Here is a video someone put up on Youtube which is a perfect example of "creep". " Creep" is the shortening of the available casting arc by unintentionally rotating the rod tip forward during the "pause". It is a common casting fault with intermediate anglers and I think it is aggrivated by today's superfast tip-action rods.

In this instance, after the stop, the rod tip rebounds forward and the caster rotates his wrist forward so that his forward casting stroke starts at the point where the re-bounded tip stops.

He has consequently narrowed his forward casting arc too much and is exerting way too much energy for the short line he has out. With that short a line, there should be no swishing noise coming from the rod. He has also severely linited his distance range and will throw tailing loops if he goes for long distance casts with that much creep.

YouTube - ‪Fly Casting‬‏

If you count the strokes, pay particular attention to the fifth or sixth forward strokes. On that particular one, he creeps to nearly a rod vertical position before starting the forward stroke.

Here is the breakout in still by Gordon Judd, a casting instructor and aeronautical engineer who studies the mechanics of casting and loop flight in mind blowing detail. The caster lost approximately 19 degrees of casting arc due to "creeping".

Click the image to open in full size.

The fix for this is "drift" after the stop. That is, moving the rod butt via the casting arm back and up after the "stop" to EXTEND the available casting arc instead of shortening it. The rod tip should move back not forward during this move.



Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 05-27-2011 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Creep

I gotta admit: I watched the youtube vid several times and still not entirely sure I am looking at the right thing.

Does the creep come at the end of the back cast?

I did notice (after you pointed it out and I was Really looking for it) that his rod kind of creeps forward at the end of the back cast stroke. Would I have detected it otherwise? nope. Could I recognize it in anyone else's stroke? probably not.

Thanks a lot Jim..... Now I've something else to be obsessive about with my cast.... =)

//Edit// It almost looks like he is just starting his forward stroke without the acceleration part of the cast.
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Creep

I saw what your talking about but I bet he is still a better caster than me. Maybe that was an example?
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:13 PM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Re: Creep

Raindog,

Since you are interested, I will upload the 10 sequential frames from that video of cast #7. Videos are the best way to analyze a cast, and can be done with a cheap video camera.

Both Diver Dan and I have been preaching on this for a long time now. He even learned how to spey cast from videos.

From one quick video of myself casting, I learned that for over 40 years now, I have been casting using a technique described by George Roberts in the last ten years or so, and thought that technique would not even work when I read the article. That is how much most of us know about what we are doing in our own casting.

It will probably take me about 10 minutes. Hang in there I'll add a link to it in this post

Cheers,
Jim

---------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

Pushed the wrong button.



Quote:
Does the creep come at the end of the back cast?
Yes! After the backcast he slowly, and unintentionally, brings the rod forward to the detriment of his next stroke.
Quote:
//Edit// It almost looks like he is just starting his forward stroke without the acceleration part of the cast.
Exactly!! That is it in a nutshell. You don't want to bring the rod forward unless it is helping the forward cast in some way. What he is doing is hurting his forward cast. He is rotating without accelerating.

I think forward Creep is one of the principal causes of tailing loops with most new casters. Jackster would know for sure and hopefully he will see this and give us the benefit of his experience as a certified casting instructor with years of students under his belt. The big problem with Creep is that no one knows when they are doing it.

If you get into the habit of "Drifting" the rod backwards right after the stop, that will eliminate "Creep". You can't creep forward when you are moving the rod backward.

Here's the link. Each picture is a frame of the video taken sequentially. I left none out. You can tell when he really began accellerating from the huge difference in rod position between frames.

Creep

PS: Sorry about the logo in the corner. That's my template page and I don't want to screw it up.


Quote:
I saw what your talking about but I bet he is still a better caster than me. Maybe that was an example?
I don't think it was an intentional example because it looks way too natural. I think he just has a bad Creep. It took me a lot of practice to learn how to throw tailing loops on request using a number of different casting flaws. Creep was the one that gave me the most trouble demonstrating.

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 05-28-2011 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Creep

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the rod, as I would the excessive effort this caster seems to use. Joan Wulff's standard casting motion involves a bit of "drift" in the arm movement at the end of the casting stroke, and she uses soft sticks. My wife puts way too much effort into casting, and weird things happen. On very narrow streams, I don't spend too much time trying to correct it (although I do make an effort), but on larger streams, it's addressed immediately. In her case, she gets excited about fishing and casting takes a back seat.... If I'm targeting a fish, casting becomes even more important, but I can understand. After 15 minutes of demonstration and relaxation coaching, she goes back to throwing nice tight loops.

Casting physics wasn't something that interested me at all until 8-9 years ago. As long as I could fire off 25-35 feet of line without hooking my ear, I was happy. When I came time to show my son how to cast, I suddenly realized I was almost clueless!

My wife's latest bad habit is to make a single haul on the back cast, and then let the line she hauled down go slack on the foward cast. I won't say it makes me crazy, but I do know that practice makes perfect, and practicing bad habits just makes them part of the routine. More bad habits are added to help compensate for the previous bad habits, and you eventually have a real mess.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Creep

Many times just looking at the background past the reel seat seems to help many solve the creep problem. It gives them a good visual clue as to what the rod is doing after the stop. When explaining it I show how a little movement at the rod butt generally translates into great movement at the rod tip.
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: Creep

I don't need to record myself, I already know I do that.

Thanks for posting this info, it will help me out a bunch.u
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:19 AM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Re: Creep

Rock,

Just say "NO" to creep.
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Creep

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
Here is a video someone put up on Youtube which is a perfect example of "creep". " Creep" is the shortening of the available casting arc by unintentionally rotating the rod tip forward during the "pause". It is a common casting fault with intermediate anglers and I think it is aggrivated by today's superfast tip-action rods......

The fix for this is "drift" after the stop. That is, moving the rod butt via the casting arm back and up after the "stop" to EXTEND the available casting arc instead of shortening it. The rod tip should move back not forward during this move.



Cheers,
Jim

I agree that the video shows rod creep.

However, I think drift and creep are two different rod moves. I don't think drifting the rod tip backward always cures creep because I still think a caster can drift a rod back, stop the drift and then creep the rod tip forward before beginning the casting move. In fact one does NOT have to actually move the rod hand backward to get backward drift of the rod tip.

See the discussion of Al Kyte below where he discusses drift.

"Apparently a rod may either be drifted farther back or drifted into a different angle, and moving your hand back is just one way to drift a rod."

http://www.fedflyfishers.org/Portals...Kyte/drift.pdf
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:05 PM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Re: Creep

Quote:
However, I think drift and creep are two different rod moves.
I agree that drift and creep are completely different moves. The defintion of creep is still up in the air as far as I know. To my way of thinking, Creep is unintentional rod rotation in the direction of the next cast (which shortens the available casting arc for the next stroke). Drift is rod rotation in the direction of the current cast which increases the available casting arc for the next stroke. They are complete opposites. I hope I didn't screw up a previous post with lousy wording.

Quote:
I don't think drifting the rod tip backward always cures creep because I still think a caster can drift a rod back, stop the drift and then creep the rod tip forward before beginning the casting move.
That is certainly possible, given enough time, but there is no cure on the planet I'm aware of that will cure anything all of the time. So if someone is creeping, and you get him to start drifting back and extending his casting arc- he can't be creeping while he is drifting. So you've got him focused on the problem. You can also do as Jackster said and have him watch the position of his casting hand. Or you can stand behind him and shove your hand in front of the rod so he can't rotate it forward (presuming forward creep) until it's time for the forward cast.

Quote:
In fact one does NOT have to actually move the rod hand backward to get backward drift of the rod tip.
Absolutely not! You are 100% correct. You can simply bend your wrist. In fact here is a video of Jerry Siem doing just that AFTER creeping and regaining most of, if not all of, the lost available casting arc. He is drifting while he is moving his rod hand FOREWARD in fact. However, I would not advocate this as a teaching method to counteract creep.

YouTube - ‪Jerry Siem Casting at the Denver Show‬‏

And here is another of Steve Rajeff doing a very quick drift while winning another US Distance Championship, to regain lost casting arc due to rebound after RSP2.

( RSP1, Rod Straight Position 1, is when the rod becomes straight again after the stop while unloading, then it Counterflexes,bending toward the ground , stops in the bent down position, then rebounds through RSP2. ..

He may not be actually moving his hand forward as he drifts, but it is very close. I would not advocate this as a teaching method either - effective though it is for Steve Rajeff. The turnaround timing is absolutely critical, and you'll notice that he is watching his backcast like an osprey watches mullet.


I haven't read Al Kyte's article you linked to in quite a while, but will read it again when I get a chance. As I recall, it wasn't about teaching methods, just about drifting and it's effects on a cast.

If you have some suggestions on the best cure for creep, I'm all ears as I'm sure everyone else is. We're all here to learn, and tell fishing tales (and just bullshit).

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 06-05-2011 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Red: hard to describe properly.
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