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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2011, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Hi Mike,
Way too many unnecessary moevements in the body and arm. I'd say scrap everything you're doing at this point, and use the fewest movements in the smallest amount to get line out. Silver Creek pointed out the foward extension of the right arm, but it's a lot of things.

In addition to Tim Landwehr's casting videos, take a look this video with Sage's Jamie Lyle:

Jamie is trying to make the Z-Axis look easy to cast, but try using the compact casting stroke he uses. Also note that while he hauls down with his left hand, he keeps tension on the line at all times. Do not mimick the wrist turn that Jamie displays. That's something that works for him, and we're working on eliminating all motions not essential to a basic cast.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

That's good perception from both Diver and Silver. What I see is a windshield wiper startoff until you get some line out, then a much stronger backcast (more than needed) followed by creep and too short a pause, Then a windshiled wiper forward cast.

That sounds like the absolutely horrible rantings of a jerk, I know. But you actually are not doing that badly. You are getting line out.

This is my suggestion:

Lay out a rope or long tape measure, or go to a ball field with straight chalked foul lines or yard lines. Stand 6 or seven feet from the straight line with both feet parallel to it. The begin false casting parallel with that line with the rod held in the horizontal postiion. Move your head back and forth to watch the loop. Use only your casting hand. Forget the line hand.

Vary the stroke length and the force required to keep the line aloft. Try making the loop different widths. Try to make the backcast loop identical to the forward cast loop. Try speeding up the cast. You will note that the pause timiing will have to be much shorter. Then slow down the cast, note that the pause length (often called "turnaround timing) varies in proportion to the line speed and length of line out.

After the hard stop, try "drifting" the rod tip toward the unrolling loop slowly - not fast enough that that you lose the feeling of tension in the rod due to the weight of the line on it.

Make sure you are accelerating to a hard stop both directions. Do this on a regular basis, not 5 hours one day then 5 hours a week later. 20 minutes every day is much better.

After a week or so of doing this, you should have a pretty good idea of what rod load feels like, and will be getting an idea of pause length. You will also be learning to control loop size by matching stroke length and force applied with the amount of line out.

Once you feel comfortable with it, add your line hand. There is only a split second when you will not feel tension in your line hand and that is right when the rod unloads and the loop is forming. If you are feeding line into the cast, it cannot be fed in so fast that tension is lost.

You can, over a period of time doing this, elevate the rod tip on an upwards angle

That would be my suggestion as a plan to try first. Hopefull, Jackster will be offering contributions as well.

It is refreshing to see someone ask questions, then follow up with some of the suggestions. The "flicking the paintbrush motion that Silver mentioned is probably one of the best visuals of what the acceleration to a stop should be like.

PS: Here is a 20 second video taken to illustrate that someone with severe rotator cuff injury can still throw flies - without even moving his upper arm. The caster was shooting line through his rod hand finger, and lost it once, but the flicking action at the end of the strokes is pretty easy to see even in real time. The rod elevation for the pickup after the lost line was higher than normal there. The reason for this was that the caster was using a good line and standing on a coral sidewalk and did not want to drag a good line across it. Normally the rod tip would be nearly at the ground for a pickup.

http://www.miterclamp.com/videos/flick_paint.wmv

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 06-29-2011 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Add video PS in red
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

There is description of the FOUNDATION CAST with a strobe photo on my friend Nelson Ishiyama's Henry's Fork Lodge Blog. It is the basic casting stroke that I teach and I learned it from Gary Borger in the 1970's. It is also the basic cast that the FFF recommends to their instructors. It is true that there are many ways to cast, but this is one of the simplest and straight forward and the one I tried to explain earlier.

If the hand and arm motion I described earlier confused you, I have another called the ABCs of casting. "A" is the hand position at the start of the downward casting stroke with the casting hand opposite your ear. Position "C" is the the hand when the forearm is parallel to the water or ground. Draw an imaginary line on the the of the hand's arc from A to C, and half way is position "B". The forward casting stroke is from A to B, with a hard stop at B; then you slowly lower the hand to C as you follow the line to the water or ground. It is a simple and compact basic stroke.

Notice that the caster faces the direction of the cast without a left or right leading foot. Notice the ABSOLUTE lack of body rotation and forward arm extension that you have in your cast.

The elbow (called by Al Kyte the elbow forward style) goes up and down like a piston and the hand follows. All the power is all from the shoulder and forearm muscles. The hand and wrist are locked except for the the mini wrist flick at the stop to get the tip out of the way of the trailing line. If you don't do this you will get a tailing loop. The larger the flip, the larger the loop formation. Many beginners will make this flip unconsciously at the stop because they are not used to the locked wrist so I do not mention it unless a student does not make it. I had a student once that would consistently stop with a locked wrist exactly as I described and she would consistently get a tailing loop. I then had to get her to flick her wrist to flip the tip down to open the closed loop a bit. She had one of the tightest loops I have ever seen in a beginner.


The Secret to an Easy Cast | The Henry's Fork Fly Fishing Lodge

See the elbow forward style as described by Al Kyte in Fall 2002 issue of The Loop


"Most elbow-forward casters also use this vertical plane, offset slightly, for the back cast to simplify the fly line’s path as it changes direction from backward to forward. The arm-lifting motion of this back cast is called “shoulder flexion.” Lowering the elbow on the forward cast is “shoulder extension.” This is the arm style of people who have most influenced casting in California, including Jimmy Green, Mel Krieger and Steve and Tim Rajeff. They personify a long-standing link between our interests in tournament fly casting and trout and steelhead fly fishing. The elbow-forward style also characterizes the casts of other notables, such as Joan Wulff, Jerry Siem, and Gary Borger."

Both Gary and his son Jason can cast an entire fly line with this stroke so learn this as your FOUNDATION CAST.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Go to this video and right at the start, Jason does the foundation cast. Notice the compact and simple casting stroke.

Fish, Flies & Water [blog] 15 Most Common Casting Errors
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Speaking of the Borgers, take a look at this video as well. Gary Borger uses a very compact stroke, and offers a quick lesson on the basics of an overhead
cast. In Part Two of this video series, Gary demonstrates the roll cast. I'd recommend watching the entire series, just because it's that good.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

thanks again, I will be trying to lock my elbow at my side this next time. I will say I did pretty good on the creek today other then not catching anything.. I made some well placed casts, I did get messed up once I was up to my waist in water but that issue is my casting, i will be working on these tips the next time out. Neat to see a Borger with a histor in this, no idea if my family has a connection. I know us Borgers are rare around here in ky, but my dad is from northern iowa. watching videos now.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

oh, just a question, could my rod be affecting my casting, I did get it used and its from a low end kit, I notice when I try to make the hard stops the tip wiggles around thus putting a wiggle in the line???
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Quote:
I notice when I try to make the hard stops the tip wiggles around thus putting a wiggle in the line???
Don't worry about that.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 06-30-2011, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbphotos54 View Post
thanks again, I will be trying to lock my elbow at my side this next time. I will say I did pretty good on the creek today other then not catching anything.. I made some well placed casts, I did get messed up once I was up to my waist in water but that issue is my casting, i will be working on these tips the next time out. Neat to see a Borger with a histor in this, no idea if my family has a connection. I know us Borgers are rare around here in ky, but my dad is from northern iowa. watching videos now.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

oh, just a question, could my rod be affecting my casting, I did get it used and its from a low end kit, I notice when I try to make the hard stops the tip wiggles around thus putting a wiggle in the line???


If you mean by "lock" your elbow, that you will hold the elbow still, that is not correct. During my first fly casting class, Gary described the elbow motion as up and down as in a pump handle.

Gary is from Pennsylvania but now is in Wisconsin. If you can trace your roots back, maybe there is a common ancestor.

When you describe rod a wiggling, do you mean it is whippy? Does it bend into the bottom third of the rod blank when you cast. If so, it will be harder to learn on that type of rod. A medium to medium fast rod is what you want. It is a rod whose "action" or flex profile bends the upper 40% to 50% of the rod. The lower 50% - 60% of the rod remains straight during the cast.

I personally like faster rods but for a beginner, the more moderate flex is better. A whippy soft rod is harder to learn on because it bends more with smaller changes in acceleration and that affects the tracking of the rod tip. You will feel the rod bend but you will be less able to control the path of the rod tip and that means you have less control of the fly line path.

What we "feel" when we cast is the bend of the rod but that bend affects where the rod tip tracks. So you need a rod that bends enough that you feel it but not so much that the rod tip is harder to control. Does that make sense?

If you know a good caster, why don't you have him/her check out your fly rod.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

PM me if you are thinking of a new rod. A fly shop has put the rod I use locally on sale at over 50% off.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
If you mean by "lock" your elbow, that you will hold the elbow still, that is not correct. During my first fly casting class, Gary described the elbow motion as up and down as in a pump handle.

Gary is from Pennsylvania but now is in Wisconsin. If you can trace your roots back, maybe there is a common ancestor.

When you describe rod a wiggling, do you mean it is whippy? Does it bend into the bottom third of the rod blank when you cast. If so, it will be harder to learn on that type of rod. A medium to medium fast rod is what you want. It is a rod whose "action" or flex profile bends the upper 40% to 50% of the rod. The lower 50% - 60% of the rod remains straight during the cast.

I personally like faster rods but for a beginner, the more moderate flex is better. A whippy soft rod is harder to learn on because it bends more with smaller changes in acceleration and that affects the tracking of the rod tip. You will feel the rod bend but you will be less able to control the path of the rod tip and that means you have less control of the fly line path.

What we "feel" when we cast is the bend of the rod but that bend affects where the rod tip tracks. So you need a rod that bends enough that you feel it but not so much that the rod tip is harder to control. Does that make sense?

If you know a good caster, why don't you have him/her check out your fly rod.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

PM me if you are thinking of a new rod. A fly shop has put the rod I use locally on sale at over 50% off.
thanks, I have 2 rods Im trying, the line is 8,6ft 6wt wf f the lighter rod is a 5/6wt and is pretty bendy but I dont think it bends much past 40% down the tip. the other rod is a 6-8wt 8ft and is much stiffer but heavier also. I do notice it is easier to cast a bit, I was hoping to use the lighter bendy rod for the creek so it it more forgiving to light fish. as for finding a caster to learn from I did meet someone at the creek that might be willing to help.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

well, I had a good session in the yard tonight, trying to use the tips from here. I was able to haul and shoot out all but 6 or 7 wraps of flyline on the reel, and was able to repeat the cast several times, my overhead casting isnt hitting the ground or knoting , atleast tonight. Ill get the video cam again next week to post again on my progress. I hope to get back on the creek next week. thanks again everyone
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:24 PM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Re: Bad video of me casting

Now I get it. No don't lock your elbow!

I see I confused you with that video, and shouldn't have put it up. I am casting like I'm in a "straight-jacket" because a guy wanted to know if he could cast with severe rotator cuff injury. So I was simly demonstrating that you don't even have to move your upper arm at all to cast. But without severe injury, you wouldn't want to cast that way.

The reason I put it up there for you is that the "flicking" motion Silver was talking about, like with a paintbrush, iis easy to see, especially on the backcast, in that video.

Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers,
Jim
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