The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > The Fly Cast

The Fly Cast Discuss fly casting with the expert, ask for help, learn to cast farther, increase your accuracy, troubleshoot your cast.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Annapolis Mo.
Posts: 97
hillbilly rick is on a distinguished road
Default Newb with casting and line problems

Howdy,
I've only been fly fishing a couple of weeks now and it has been both fun and very frustrating.
My brother has a DVD of a woman(can't remember her name now, But I'm sure many know who she is) teaching fly casting. I've seen and read many articles, but this was by far the most informative. What got my attention was all the records she set from the 1930s on even beating men.
I try to do the, lift, snap, stop on the back cast then, forward, snap,follow through on the forward cast.
I'm using a TCO Lefty Kreh signature edition 9ft 7wt fly rod 2pc. With scientific anglers L-7-F line. I know the level line doesn't get as much distance, but, I'm doin' good to get 30' or so. If I wade out into the stream any more, it's too deep to cast well.
Also, after only a few minutes of fishing, the line starts sinking. This make it very difficult to pull a bass fly off the water. I clean and dress my line after fishing, and come prepared to dress it while I'm fishing, but every few minutes? I go out to fish not play with my gear!! I could see 3-4 times a day not 3-4 times an hour. Is the line bad? Am I doing something wrong ? Or is this what I should expect?
Thanks
Rick
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 03:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,914
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

The lady was probably Joan Wulff.

Inspect the line. Being a level line, it actually has more of the floating material at the tip. It should float better than a tapered line that has relatively more of the core and less of the floating material. Because it is a level line that is sinking, I suspect it is old; and I bet that you will find multiple circular dark lines around the line. These are cracks. I think you need a new line. A moderately priced Wf 7 or 8 F should do.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Last edited by silver creek; 07-11-2011 at 04:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 03:44 PM
Super Moderator/Fly Swap Coordinator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,019
peregrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond reputeperegrines has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Hey Rick, that woman in the casting video sounds like Joan Wulff-- she's terrific. She and her now deceased husband Lee Wulff are fly fishing legends.

The great thing about watching Joan who's now in her 80's and probably 100 lbs soaking wet, is that she demonstrates how fly casting isn't a matter of brute strength but technique, timing (allowing the line to straighten out on the back cast before beginning the forward cast), keeping the rod tip within a narrow arc, smooth strokes and sudden stops at the end of the forward and back strokes. Most guys tend to try and muscle a cast for more distance rather than letting the rod do the work, and things usually start falling apart pretty quick.

The line doesn't sound ideal, and the fact that it isn't floating is not a good sign--- it's pretty difficult to "pick up" any fly line that's sunk below the surface-- and even if you could rip it out of the water, you'd be sending fish into the other end of the lake. So you'd basically have to do the same thing you'd have to do with a fly line that's designed to sink, and that is strip in most of it before casting-- but if you're wading that means that you'll have to rip the slack line out of the water when you cast-- and the water resistance will really cut down on your distance. (Up here in the Northeast guys that wade in the saltwater surf like forum member Riptide use a shooting basket to keep slack line).

What you might want to do is to try comparing the distance you get casting on the lawn to how much you're getting on the water.-- You could get down on your knees on the lawn to compare to deep wading. If you're getting a lot less on the water it's probably due to the additional water resistance on the slack line in the water you're trying to pick up and get through the guides.

It sounds like you might want to consider getting a new fly line-- a weight forward taper isn't going to add miles to your cast compared to a level fly line -- but it will help if it floats and will be better at punching out wind resistant flies like poppers.

But since you're new to this, there's probably some things you can do to tune up your technique. Without seeing you cast, it's hard to diagnose your casting, but a couple things to look for-- and very common things that people run into:

How tight are the loops? Ideally the loop of fly line should be narrow. If you are throwing wide loops it is probably because you're moving your fly rod through too wide of an arc between your forward and backcast (instead of roughly 10 to 2 maybe more like drifting from 9 to 3) and unlike casting a spinning rod, you want to keep your wrist stiff.

Are you getting overhand knots in your leader or is the fly getting caught in the fly line on the forward stroke? Those knots are called "wind knots" and they're usually caused by dipping the rod tip during the forward stroke in an attempt to power the stroke. Ease off a bit on the power and try to smooth out your stroke. Getting windknots is a sign of throwing a "tailing loop"-- I tend to get them when I'm trying to get greater distance

Are you cracking the whip on your backcast? If so it's a sign that you're not waiting long enough for the backcast to straighten out behind you and you're starting the forward cast too soon. If you open up your stance a bit so you can actually watch the line straighten out behind you, that might help a bit-- after awhile you'll be able to automatically feel the rod load.

Hope this helps a bit.
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 04:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Annapolis Mo.
Posts: 97
hillbilly rick is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Silver Creek, I see no circles, but there are some small bumps, just a few. Otherwise the line is bright and shiny and I bought it when I got the rod, no telling how long it sat on a shelf. I did practice in the yard, could the grass(weeds) have caused the bumps?
You're both right, it is Joan Wulff, what an inspiration! I saw a you tube vid with her I think I'll check it out.
I do get much more distance on the lawn.The water's too deep for a basket, it would be under. Some places the water is chest deep. This causes problems with the back cast.
I haven't watched my line on the back cast, but I'm not cracking the whip, that has happened and I knew what to do. I don't get wind knots but the tippet sure gets twisted. It's hard to use good form when the waters up past my elbows. Since it's not doing me any good anyway.
Seems like new fly line is in order, which ones should I consider? Which ones should I avoid? There are no stores around here I'll have to order it.
Thank You both,
Rick
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 05:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,914
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

You mentioned bass bugs so I'm guessing a WF bass or "clouoser" taper with more of the fly line front loaded would be a good bet. Check the line profiles below:

Cortland Fly Line Specifications

http://www.wittlock.se/shop/20799/ar...g_08_specs.pdf

The other question would be why you are wading so deep? Perhaps wading not so deep to as to constrict your casting allowing you to casting further would be an option. Another question I would have is whether you are hitting the water in back of you with your backcast.

A video of you casting would help in identifying ways to improve your casting.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2011, 08:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Annapolis Mo.
Posts: 97
hillbilly rick is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Silver Creek,
Thank you for the links. I'd never heard of bass taper until today. I had no idea there were so many types of WF line.I thought they were the same taper.
I'll see if I can get the Mrs. to film me and then see if I'm smart enough to post it(old dog, new trick thing).
The reason I wade so deep is the water is that deep from the bank and now deeper in the middle. We used to wade up the middle and hit the holes on the sides and the water was only knee deep. This years floods really changed the river and the smallies are about 70ft. out jumping up and laughing at me, callin' my name, well I better stop there before someone thinks I'm as twisted as my line. The Mrs. already does but hey, we're all fisherman here right?
YES, when the water is deep I hit it on the back cast. I s'pose I need to figger a different way.
So, bass taper line, don't wade so deep, have wife get vid of me and earplugs so I can't hear the fish teasing me.
Thanks again,
Rick
P.S. should I seal the end of my line before tying the leader on? I did not. I use a nail knot.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2011, 03:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 542
Flyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of lightFlyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of lightFlyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of lightFlyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of lightFlyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of lightFlyfisher for men is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Another guy who suspects a bad line.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,914
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly rick View Post
Silver Creek,

YES, when the water is deep I hit it on the back cast. I s'pose I need to figger a different way.
So, bass taper line, don't wade so deep, have wife get vid of me and earplugs so I can't hear the fish teasing me.
Thanks again,
Rick
P.S. should I seal the end of my line before tying the leader on? I did not. I use a nail knot.
If you are hitting on the back cast, I suspect you are waving the rod thought a wide angle - this is the classic windshield washer cast. A proper backcast should direct the fly angled up or at most level so it should not hit the water.

Use a nail knot using about .020" stiff nylon mono. I use 25 lb test brown Maxima Chameleon. Cover the nail knot with Pliobond or some other pliable glue. This smooths the surface of the knot to form a smooth transition that is less likely to catch on the guides.

Then tie a perfection loop to the end of the mono. The mono and loop should be about 6-8" in length. Then use the loop to connect to the leader with a loop to loop connection.

If you do not have .020 mono, nail knot the butt end of a new leader to the end of the fly line and coat the knot with Pliobond. Once the leader is trashed cut it off about 1 foot of the end of the fly line and put a perfection loop on the remaining butt section of the leader. Connect the new leader with a loop to loop connection.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Annapolis Mo.
Posts: 97
hillbilly rick is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Silver Creek,
Thanks, the leader I'm using now is Berkley specialist 2x with an .018 butt. Then use a blood knot to tie 4lb. mono for a tippet(about 2ft) All together it's the length of the rod. The tip of the fly line sinks first. Could it be absorbing water through it?
When I first dress my line, I don't have to muscle it out of the water and I don't hit the water behind me. When the line is sinking, it takes a lot to haul it out and I often have to dodge a large popper.
I fished hard all day yesterday and kept my line dressed so it floated and didn't wade up to my armpits and try to cast. I did catch a bunch of orange sunfish, so I got practice and fun all at once. I'll get that end sealed up and let you know what happens.
Thanks
Rick
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2011, 04:34 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,914
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Newb with casting and line problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly rick View Post
Silver Creek,
Thanks, the leader I'm using now is Berkley specialist 2x with an .018 butt. Then use a blood knot to tie 4lb. mono for a tippet(about 2ft) All together it's the length of the rod. The tip of the fly line sinks first. Could it be absorbing water through it?
When I first dress my line, I don't have to muscle it out of the water and I don't hit the water behind me. When the line is sinking, it takes a lot to haul it out and I often have to dodge a large popper.

Thanks
Rick
You said the leader was a 2X but you are using a 4 lb tippet. When a leader is 2X, it is .009" thick and should be about 10 lb breaking strength. 2X Berkely Specialist tippet material is 6 lb, still higher than the 4 lb mono you are using.

As a beginner, you need to make sure your leader system is properly designed. You are probably are using regular spinning line for tippet. Therfore I can't tell you whether it is OK or not.

The fact that the line is sinking mean you should replace it. Since it is level line, you can try turning it around. Maybe the other end will float.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
casting problems wabi General Discussion 16 06-12-2011 10:08 PM
casting problems troutbound General Discussion 6 04-16-2010 08:20 PM
Newb in lower MI needs with my casting! sparkie The Fly Cast 8 08-08-2008 02:54 AM
casting problems?? new fly line johnny5wa The Fly Cast 8 02-23-2008 11:47 PM
new GL3 1086-4....casting problems fishin fever The Fly Cast 4 11-16-2005 12:25 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.