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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

I'd have to agree with him that the rod won't make a whole lot of difference so long as it's strong enough for the line weight. He's plenty strong enough to handle rods not built to trim weight down to the last grain.

I could cast a 12 wt glass Fenwick when in my 20's and 30's further than I can cast any modern 12 wt. I could also cast a full line with my bamboo rods in lighter line weights and shorter rod lengths in the old days. And do both all day long.

My goal with the higher strength to weight rods is to slow down the decline and extend the effective fishing time (and years of fishing time remaining) for saltwater fish. I'm beyond the point where I would even consider trout filshing (or anything else) at hilgh altitudes no matter what the temperature, or living where it gets below 50 degrees regularly.

So light rods definitely are worth the money to me. As far as distance casting goes, if I were younger, I would place rod blank diameter ahead of weight when selecting a distance rod, preferring a thinner heavier rod over a fatter lighter one of the same strength.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

WJC,
He asked me ask you what rods you think would be the best for what he's doing. Which ones have the thin diameter you were referring to. I want to ask you why you think him missing the first stripping guide made such a difference. Was it the reduced friction on the line, pulling on the rod farther up helping load it better, something else, or ....??
Dan
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

I heard a story about a casting instructor who skipped the first stripper guide to help a novice caster tame a fast action rod. But I wouldn't think it would have helped your friend all that much if hes allready casting so far. I would think it had something to do with feeling the loading of the rod but just a guess.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

I'm not sure what butt diameter has to do with anything. The most important thing I look for in a distance rod is an ultra fast tip with a very powerfull butt section. I bring up the TCX because of these two attributes. If you are familiar with CCS the sage TCX tests close two 2 rod weights higher than its perscribed line weight in relative power.

heres a link to the CCS system:

The Common Cents System

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

And heres a link of some rod powers and actions in CCS ...

Sexyloops Rod Database


P.S. BTW cabelas three forks rods test pretty light power compared to their perscibed line weights.
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver Dan
Today he called me and said "I had a Eureka moment!" By accident he missed the first stripper guide.
Interesting! Here is a picture of three rods with the tops of the reel seats lined up. The middle rod is a standard TCX 7 wt.

Click the image to open in full size.

The top rod is the model (5 wt) Jerry Siem designed to beat Steve Rajeff (and Loomis) at the Best of the West distance championship a few years ago - The TCR "X" prefix. Although it didn't work, the TCR (x) was the rod used by every finalist except for Steve (who won with a Loomis of his design).

Notice the position of the stripping guide compared to a stock TCX.

The bottom rod (8 wt) is one that a guy named Peter Phelps made for me in the late 80's, the only rod I've had made from graphite. I specified the placement of the stripping guide way up there to get it further from my stripping basket.

After casting that rod , I discovered that friction from the haul was considerably less than with them jammed up close to the reel. Only recently did I discover why. It was during a discussion of line wear. From stills grabbed from videos, it became obvious that as the pull angle on the stripping guide becomes more acute, the faster the line wears due to increased friction with the stripping guide (which is nothing more than wasted energy, which in turn, slows down haul acceleration).

I think it also helps in reducing friction when the line is free shooting (not throught a line hand donut) because the shooting line doesn't tend to carry so far beyond the stripping guide then have get back through it from up front of the guide.

As far as whilch rod for Bill, I don't know. I never get a chance to cast new rods because there are no shows near enough to me and I don't even have anyone to fly fish with anymore. All the guys I've fished with in the past were just very good fishermen and self taught fly casters, a couple very good casters, but who didn't keep up on rod technology.

I did cast a Sintrex 12 wt a while back (and set back my shoulder healing) and it had a butt diameter about the same as my 7 wt. However, it didn't have to balls to carry a 12 wt rio tarpon line well. So I would consider it an 11 wt. max for me, since I like that taper for tarpon and other fish who tend to spook easily. The butt diameter seemed to be about 7 or 8 weight diameter, but I don't know about further up which is what really counts.

One thing I'd really be interested in finding out would be Bill's reaction if he tried, on his forward haul, to bring his hauling hand through much higher than he normall does by cocking his elbox up whille bringing his line hand into his chest and then snapping back with elbow and wrist pronation. That would be opposed to his normal forward haul with a straighter elbow and a long curving arc. The final haul length would be the same, but the pull angle on the stripping guide will be much straighter and the distance traveled by the line hand would be shorter.

It is not as comfortable as the big arc haul - espcially with an open casting stance- but I am curious.

I am still resting my shoulder and am afraid to do any casting at all.

Pegboy,

I am not that big a fan of the CCS system, primarily because the testing is a static test using an arbitrary rod bend factor which is way, way below what occurs during long casts. For instance, on a perfect casting day, I can cast my TCR 8 wt (10.8 wt on the CCS scale) the furthest with a 6 wt MED line. I use a 7 wt floating line when fishing with it. Using the CCS values I am underlining by 3 or 4 line weights. Using the Sage value I am underlining by only one when fishing, so I prefer Sage's rod ratings.

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 10-01-2011 at 10:45 AM. Reason: edit in blue for clarity
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

This I can use! I've always felt my stripping guides were too close to my stripping basket. They seem to get in my way more than anything else. I may have to cut one off and see if it helps.
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Old 10-01-2011, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post

Pegboy,

I am not that big a fan of the CCS system, primarily because the testing is a static test using an arbitrary rod bend factor which is way, way below what occurs during long casts. For instance, on a perfect casting day, I can cast my TCR 8 wt (10.8 wt on the CCS scale) the furthest with a 6 wt MED line. I use a 7 wt floating line when fishing with it. Using the CCS values I am underlining by 3 or 4 line weights. Using the Sage value I am underlining by only one when fishing, so I prefer Sage's rod ratings.

Cheers,
Jim
Jim,
CCS ratings (to me at least) are mearly a way to quantify rod actions and powers across all manufacturers suggestions. In other words what sage says is an 8wt might not be the same as what Orvis says an so on. I simply use the CCS numbers as a starting point so that I may look at all rods with a subjective measuring system. I agree that just because CCS makes a suggestion about what a certain weight might be, the rod certainly does not have to be used for only those weights. Ultimately it is what feels good to you that makes for a correct line weight.
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

WJC,
Bill told me to tell you your advice was golden. He started to cock his elbow up on the forward cast. At first he had trouble with it and almost gave up on it. He said it's still not in his muscle memory so he has to concentrate on it, but it has smoothed out his forward cast, he gets less tailing loops, more line speed and distance. Speaking of distance, he's tossing the 5wt. Barrio over 120 and thinks pretty soon he'll get the whole 130' line out of the rod.

He also asked how far up is the stripper guide on the TCX? Also, are those rods collectors items because they are a part of distance casting history?

We are going to try and shoot some new video this week. We have had a tough time lately being able to both have the same time off without a 30 mph wind to go along with it. I'm going to try and do a better job shooting it than last time to. We're going to do it with the Barrio lines and they are white so they should show up better.

Thanks for the help you are giving him, he's passed the point where I am of any help now.
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

Dan, Incredible what your friend has done,by watching he has really mastered casting,it seems to have come so natural to him,also he seems to do it with ease.
I hope he does well,cheers.
Brian.
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
Speaking of distance, he's tossing the 5wt. Barrio over 120 and thinks pretty soon he'll get the whole 130' line out of the rod.
130' with a 5 wt. will probably earn him a spot in the record books.

How competitive is he; spirit-wise? Might be worth his traveling to the Best of the West tournament this coming year; just for the distance part of it.

On a related topic, if he's still doing all of this with a Cabella's rod (I can't remember if you said that he has better rods now or not), then I would think that they'd be interested in an endorsement; which could be good for him in more ways than one. Frankly, any manufacturer would probably be interested in him from an endorsement/advertising standpoint, if he set a new record with their rod. And if the words gets out that he's capable of setting records, then he'll have more rods coming his way than he'll know what to do with.....

I hope he likes to fish!

Pocono
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:39 AM
wjc wjc is offline
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Default Re: Amazing natural caster...the update.

Dan,

That's great news to hear from Bill. Please extend my congradulations on his progress and dedication. I'm glad that it might be working for him. I've not seen any of the competitive casters use that forward haul stroke, so if it's working, he might want to keep it under his hat until he starts entering competitions - where all the top casters are analyzed by everyone.

Also, he should not overdo it and should work up slow at the start of every casting session. It puts a lot more strain on the elbow, and on every muscle in that arm, than the normal hauling motion. But I think it can result in a more explosive haul and higher line speed. And because of that, it can be executed later in the stroke.

The measurements from the top reel seat hoods to the center of the stripping guide ring on the three pictured rods are:

7 wt standard salt water TCX = 24 3/8"

5 wt TCR "X" serial prefix = 28"

8 wt custom Loomis (IMX ?) = 30"

From my understanding from distance casters, not many of the 5 wt TCR "X" serial # prefix rods were made, and the succeeding TCR's were modified to make them "easier" to cast. I got mine used from a guy who liked the newer TCX better. I don't know if they are collectable or not since few people even know of the difference.

I've never taped my casts using that rod, but it is very powerful for a 5 wt. and will throw a long line.

I hear you about not being able to help Bill further. His progress and dedication are way beyond "remarkable". I think now it is mainly just a matter of his time with line in the air and playing with different things one at a time. There are lots of timing things that can be played with that are often overlooked. Weight shift and torsional "snap" are two - the latter of which can easily totally ruin tracking.

But, again, I have never been a competitive distance caster, I just gravitated to throwing long while fishing the surf, and later while bass fishing shore lines with the outboard motor running. I caught tapon once at a long distance while putting along with the motor in gear to intersect the pod.

There is one other trick that few if any distance casters use because the timing window is so miniscule and easy to blow, the backcast has to have tremendous velocity at the turnover, and at the right elevation, and the carry length has to be spot on. If the carry length is a little too long, but everything else just right, the rod will snap. Bill certainly has the backcast for it - probably the best I've seen on any video of anyone. It might work for him. But he's got enough things to diddle with and I got to get my bait tank template to the welder now. Besides, he wouldn't want to snap that Cabellas rod.

Cheers,
Jim
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