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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2012, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

Borger's drawing isn't what most people visualize when you tell them to "go from 10 to 2" though. Beginners hear that and they will invariably lock their arms in place and rotate their wrists from a fixed point in the "center of the clock". But Borger is sending the rod up and back (by moving from the shoulder) in the back cast and then down and forward in the forward cast. The drawing is a little misleading too, because it shows the rod tip positions at the back cast and the end of the forward cast to be on the same level while the rod butts are not. The lines representing the rod are different lengths in his drawing, but of course an actual fly rod doesn't change length. If your hand is higher up in the back cast than it is in the forward cast, then the rod tip will be higher in the back cast as well.

The rod tip and the line will not travel a level path in the back cast with that stroke (as implied by the level lines on the drawing). The line will go up as it goes back. Then the rod and the line will drop and go forward. That allows the rod end of the line to travel underneath the leader end of the line in the loop (avoiding a tailing loop), and as long as you don't drop the rod too much in the the forward cast, you'll get a nice tight loop going forward.

The biggest difference between Borger's drawing and the FFF photo is in the arm movement. Borger illustrates moving from the shoulder, allowing the arm to travel up and back and then down and forward (same as Chris's drawings pretty much). The FFF photo shows the guy's upper arm locked, and he is bending from the elbow (and a little wrist) only. That photo is a little closer to what a lot of people visualize when they hear "10-2". You can see that his rod tip is moving in more of an arc - low in the back, high in the middle, and low in the front. Also, the loop going forward is bordering on the large side. That works OK for me on shorter casts, but I get tailing loops and/or big open loops if I try that with medium to longer casts.

If you watch Jason Borger in "A River Runs Through It" and look at the photos in the post above, you see him moving his entire arm - up and back....then down and forward. He doesn't lock his arm and rotate around his wrist or his elbow. If he did, his casts would suck.

As far as the semantics goes, "10-2" descriptions appear to communicate the right things to some folks, but a lot of people visualize an improper technique when they hear those words. It does appear that everybody pretty much agrees on what proper technique looks like. There are just different opinions on how to best describe it verbally.

If you REALLY want a verbal exercise, try to describe this casting technique with words only: Advanced Trick Casting: The Shadow Cast - YouTube



---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------

Here's a video that showed up on the side of the page with the one I just posted. This one is Steve Rajeff talking about the cast. Although he mentions "10-1" (not 10-2), the rest of his description and demonstration shows him moving his entire arm up and back and then down and forward, with more exaggerated movements of both his arm and his body on longer casts.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2012, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

The thing is to give beginners a simple motion for a basic cast.. They are not going to cast 60 feet as beginners. So the foundation cast is just that, a foundation. It is to learn a simple cast and to get the muscle memory to feel the rod bend.

Many techniques work. What I am saying is that this technique is simple and easy for beginners to learn. To say that you can use other motions like Lefty Kreh's low elbow technique is beside the point. Or you can use the elbow up to the side technique of Dan Blanton and Bruce Richards.

This simple "elbow forward" technique is the one that Joanne Wulff, Mel Krieger, Gary and Jason Borger, Jim Green, Jerry Seim, Steve and Jeff Rajeff use. It is basically the technique developed at the Golden Gate Casting Club.

As you lengthen the cast, you can open up your arms and use a fuller casting motion. But to teach this full arm technique to beginners creates a greater opportunity for casting errors.

To explain the various casting styles, Al Kyte wrote the article below. Using any of these style, you can cast well. However, you will note that most of the casters that are known for instruction favor the elbow forward style. I think it is because it is the easiest for beginners to grasp.

http://fedflyfishers.org/Portals/0/D...l%20Styles.pdf

As to whether it is 10 to 2 or 11 to 2 or 10 to 1 for a perfect cast is really irrelevant. As Chris said, as the cast lengthens, the angle can widen. If we are talking about what to tell beginners, I maintain that if you tell beginners 10 to 2, you will often get 9 to 3 or 9 to 2 or 10 to 4, etc, etc. It is MUCH easier to get then to OPEN up the angle than to tighten it. Their instinct is to wave the arm and break the wrist!

So start them with shorter casts and smaller angles. You want them to have success early with a relatively tight loop. Then they can lengthen and open that casting angle.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2012, 06:12 AM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

In the recently posted video of Steve Rajeff:
Take note of the section between 0:46 and 1:14. Steve is pretty much holding the stop positions while simply increasing the stroke length.
One can baffle the beginner with brilliance or keep it simple and succinct and help them enjoy casting instead of being intimidated by it.
In teaching new to moderate casters I stress the stop. You can't effectively make the line go without a firm stop. That seems to click with them and is driven home with a demonstration of casts with and without a positive stop. We've all had students who rip the loop open by dropping the rod tip, especially on the presentation cast.
To keep the stop concept into terms that can be visualized we've all heard of imagining a brick wall behind and in front of us that forces the rod to stop high. I use the 10:00 and 2:00 analogy to help drive the point home of the importance of the stop but follow it up by simply pointing the index fingers of both hands while next to each other at 10 and 2 and slowly drawing the fingers apart while keeping them pointed at 10 and 2. I explain that for more distance you generally want more stroke length while still keeping the positive stops.
I hope I hang up the rod if the day comes when my student’s eyes glass over from my instructions.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2012, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
The thing is to give beginners a simple motion for a basic cast.. They are not going to cast 60 feet as beginners. So the foundation cast is just that, a foundation. It is to learn a simple cast and to get the muscle memory to feel the rod bend.

Many techniques work. What I am saying is that this technique is simple and easy for beginners to learn. To say that you can use other motions like Lefty Kreh's low elbow technique is beside the point. Or you can use the elbow up to the side technique of Dan Blanton and Bruce Richards.

This simple "elbow forward" technique is the one that Joanne Wulff, Mel Krieger, Gary and Jason Borger, Jim Green, Jerry Seim, Steve and Jeff Rajeff use. It is basically the technique developed at the Golden Gate Casting Club.

As you lengthen the cast, you can open up your arms and use a fuller casting motion. But to teach this full arm technique to beginners creates a greater opportunity for casting errors.

To explain the various casting styles, Al Kyte wrote the article below. Using any of these style, you can cast well. However, you will note that most of the casters that are known for instruction favor the elbow forward style. I think it is because it is the easiest for beginners to grasp.

http://fedflyfishers.org/Portals/0/D...l%20Styles.pdf

As to whether it is 10 to 2 or 11 to 2 or 10 to 1 for a perfect cast is really irrelevant. As Chris said, as the cast lengthens, the angle can widen. If we are talking about what to tell beginners, I maintain that if you tell beginners 10 to 2, you will often get 9 to 3 or 9 to 2 or 10 to 4, etc, etc. It is MUCH easier to get then to OPEN up the angle than to tighten it. Their instinct is to wave the arm and break the wrist!

So start them with shorter casts and smaller angles. You want them to have success early with a relatively tight loop. Then they can lengthen and open that casting angle.
I agree with all of this. All the great casters and instructors mentioned that occasionally utter the phrase "10-to-2" obviously have great casting mechanics, and they spend 99.9% of their time explaining and demonstrating the cast in all kinds of other ways that are effective in getting people to understand and learn how to cast. I suspect that some people benefit from hearing the 10-2 talk while others are at least briefly confused by it. But thankfully there is much more to those folks' instruction, and everyone is able to pick up on some part of their descriptions and demonstrations.

This discussion has been interesting in that it shows that people visualize different things when they hear things like "10-2". For some, it apparently is an effective word picture, and for others it isn't. I suspect that's why all those great instructors have to spend a good amount of time talking about and demonstrating the cast in different ways. There is likely no one magic phrase that makes everyone's light bulb come on.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:30 AM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

Quote:
The rod that you say is pointing to 10 o'clock and at 2 o'clock do not have the rod butts in the center of the clock face and therefore, the rod tips really do not point at 10 and 2. The butt rotation is NOT 120 degrees between the two rods. Place the butts together and move them to the clock center and the angle formed by the rods is much less. The 10 o'clock rod tip would move to 11 and the 2 o'clock rod tip to 1 o'clock. That is why I said there is confusion about what the clock face represents. There is the stroke path which is the movement of the rod and reel from the rear position to the forward position and there is the rod butt rotation which is the degrees of rotation on the clock face.

I purposely did not put the reel in the center on every one but drawing B. Leaving the reel in the center and moving the rod tip from 10-2 can only be done by bending the wrist and causes a convex rod tip path which has to produce an open loop. I intended to show that casting from 10-2 could be done but the entire rod must move inside the clock face and the tip could stop at the 10 and 2 but travels there in a straight line. Not what people usually do when they are taught a 10-2 stroke My drawings were meant to show why 10-2 is not the best intruction method. They were simply in response to the previous post that asked if all 10-2 casts were with the wrist.

Clock face instruction is too limited to a ceratin distance. It can show people a generality but their idea of 10-2 or 11-1 or 10-12 may be different than mine. Longer casts would requite a bigger clock. On my longest casts, I am nowhere near any 10-2. Here, we do a lot of 3/4 and sidearm strokes which do not fit into the 10-2 scheme at all.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Beginner: Different technique for slow rod?

So Phil from Ottawa,

How is the casting practice going?

By the way, 30 minutes at a time often is better than 2 hours at a time less frequently.
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