The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > The Fly Cast

The Fly Cast Discuss fly casting with the expert, ask for help, learn to cast farther, increase your accuracy, troubleshoot your cast.

Like Tree4Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6
brodie is on a distinguished road
Default Casting questions from a rookie

Still being a newbie with a fly rod, i gotta few questions about casting...

My double haul is slowly improving and i'm able to fly more line in my false casts.
What is the typical ratio of feet of aerial line in the false cast to the length of the final (approach) cast? In other words, if your trying to cast 70', do you fly 50' and have 20' of slack to shoot on the final, or 60' false and 10' final, or...?

Does the answer differ with different rod weights and actions?

Speaking of actions, Ive got a slow action echo 4 wt 8'....cant get the distance out of it compared to when i cast my son's fast action 4 wt 8' (which is a much cheaper rod). Do slow action rods typically cast shorter or is it a timing thing?

(One more) Should higher value rod (reputable, $$$) give you more distance than $50 rod of the same class? (In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,030
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie View Post
Still being a newbie with a fly rod, i gotta few questions about casting...

My double haul is slowly improving and i'm able to fly more line in my false casts.
What is the typical ratio of feet of aerial line in the false cast to the length of the final (approach) cast? In other words, if your trying to cast 70', do you fly 50' and have 20' of slack to shoot on the final, or 60' false and 10' final, or...?

Does the answer differ with different rod weights and actions?

Speaking of actions, Ive got a slow action echo 4 wt 8'....cant get the distance out of it compared to when i cast my son's fast action 4 wt 8' (which is a much cheaper rod). Do slow action rods typically cast shorter or is it a timing thing?

(One more) Should higher value rod (reputable, $$$) give you more distance than $50 rod of the same class? (In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)

The amount of line you can shoot varies with the effectiveness of the haul, the length of line you have out of the guides, the length of the fly rod (longer rod = longer lever), and rod actions. So no single ratio is possible.

I've talked to Gary Borger about this and he has told me that Jason tries to "carry" 100 feet of line in the air and shoot 20 feet if he is to hit a 120 foot cast.

A faster rod action has more "reserve" power and it also flexes less for the same distance cast. Therefore the chord, or effective rod length (EFL), of the flexed rod is longer. That means that it is a longer lever and a longer lever means a longer cast.

See 5 and 6 in the illustration below. The dotted line is the chord/EFL

Click the image to open in full size.

A more expensive fly rod generally is a better casting instrument. It has a thinner profile so less energy is spend fighting air resistance. It has better damping. It is lighter and therefore there is less rod inertia. But as in other sports, it is up to the caster to use the capability rod the fly rod.

Assigning percentages as to whether the rod is X% and the angler Y% is of a cast is problematic. If there is a useful rule of thumb, I would say that a good caster can overcome poor rod dynamics, whereas a poor rod makes it much more difficult for a newbie to learn casting. So my recommendation to beginning casters is to buy at least a rod that will not hinder their casting.

Many of your questions about fly rod dynamics are answered here:

Fly rod line rating, power, and action - an explanation.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Last edited by silver creek; 01-25-2013 at 02:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:57 AM
Guest1's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lake of the Woods/Rainy River Minnesota Canada border
Posts: 4,752
Guest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie View Post
(In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)
It's not a lot different with fly rods either despite what some people will try and tell you. At best it's 95% skill and 5 % rod.
pkins44, itchmesir and troutnut4 like this.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 12:36 PM
randyflycaster's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
randyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to all
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Casting on a lawn, I've never been able to carry 100 feet of line before my presentation cast.

For me to cast 107' I would false cast about 58' on my last back cast, then I'd shoot about 7' of line.

The bottom line is: you have to experiment on you're own, but the more false casts you make the less line you'll probably be able to carry.

BTW, the lighter your fly line the more line you'll be able to carry, which is why many casters feel they cast farther with a DT line than with with a FT.

Randy

P.S In many casting tournaments, casters can pick up the line in front of them with the line lying in water. That way, with the increased water tension, they can carry more line (and execute only one back cast).

Randy
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 01:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,030
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post

BTW, the lighter your fly line the more line you'll be able to carry, which is why many casters feel they cast farther with a DT line than with with a FT.


Randy

???? Don't you mean further with a WF line? What's a FT line
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 06:33 PM
randyflycaster's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
randyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to all
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

I meant WF. Most casters will cast farther with a WF line, perhaps, but when it comes to real long casts, Steve Rajeff said a DT allows really good casters to carry more line. A fly rod is designed to handle a certain amount of weight. If it's overloaded it slows down and the line/cast doesn't go as far; so 60 feet of a DT weighs less than 60 feet of a WF line.
Randy
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,030
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
I meant WF. Most casters will cast farther with a WF line, perhaps, but when it comes to real long casts, Steve Rajeff said a DT allows really good casters to carry more line. A fly rod is designed to handle a certain amount of weight. If it's overloaded it slows down and the line/cast doesn't go as far; so 60 feet of a DT weighs less than 60 feet of a WF line.
Randy
I think you have it reversed. A WF has a rear taper that goes into a running line. A DT has only the front taper and then a long belly section that goes into the taper on the other end so that the line can be turned around.

Unless you have a longbelly WF line, the first 60 feet of a Wf line will weigh less than the first 60 feet of a DT line.
As the drawing below shows at 60 feet the WF line is into the running line so it has less mass over the first 60 feet that the DT line.

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2013, 01:02 AM
Jackster's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,643
Jackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant futureJackster has a brilliant future
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

With some 5 weight tournament-type lines now with heads approaching the 75' mark and with smaller diameter running line and very long rear tapers now allow you to carry all of that head and more because of the smooth, gradual transition from head to running line. This head design helps prevent hinging and the thin running line cuts friction and thus helps with longer shoots.
Coating slickness too helps not only in a longer shoot but also helps prevent slack when feeding line back after each haul.
I would say at my maximum carry I try to shoot is 20-25' feet of line. Many times though I admit to doing what so many people do and wait one false cast too much to shoot the line. Trying to sqeeze that little extra out of each false cast can ruin a perfectly good lead going into that last cast.
Hang around casting circles enough and a common comment heard is 'should have let the one before that go'.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2013, 09:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,030
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

Jackster,

Wouldn't those be "long belly" WF fly lines and not DT lines?
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:28 AM
Guest1's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lake of the Woods/Rainy River Minnesota Canada border
Posts: 4,752
Guest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

One more thing, more carry does not mean more distance. I have video of my friend Bill doing a 90' carry with a 3 wt. I wish he would let me post. He Carries 100' with no problem with a 5 wt. line. It's cool to do, but the trick to getting more distance is not in the amount you carry but the line speed when you shoot. Higher speed means more distance.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rookie needs some help pie314 General Discussion 21 11-23-2010 04:48 AM
MT Rookie skins2215 Member Introductions 3 05-18-2009 06:45 PM
Rookie Creek Freak Member Introductions 1 05-06-2009 10:44 PM
new to fly fishing questions about casting. xjguy07 The Fly Cast 7 06-17-2007 08:29 PM
Rookie questions, tippets and leaders kraig Coldwater Fly Fishing 7 05-15-2006 08:45 AM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.