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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

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Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
I see what you are saying.... But, in the photo with the floppy cast;
Click the image to open in full size.

He has a bent wrist. In a V grip you can get the rod pretty close to flat without bending your wrist. If you get your thumb in the way and don't bend your wrist you can't get it back past 2 oclock. So I am going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption Lefty also said don't bend your wrist.

Turbineblade, you can also disregard the don't bend your wrist thing when you are better.
Here is a slow motion of Lefty casting. Does Lefty bend his wrist back on the back cast?


In his book, Modern Fly Casting Methods, when addressing teaching beginners, Lefty writes "use of the forearm with little or no wrist .... delivers a more efficient cast...." However in longer casts, as in the video, you can decide whether the wrist comes into play on the backcast.

Hint, Lefty says that one should use the thumb on top grip and point with the thumb. At the forward stop the Lefty's thumb is on a direct line with his forearm. Now look at the stop on the backcast. Is Lefty's thumb on a direct line with his forearm?

Lefty says for accuracy on the cast, you use the thumb on top grip and point your thumb at the target. My question is when you tell someone to point at a target, do they point with their thumb or their index finger? That is why many, if not most casters, who use the thumb on top grip will switch to the forefinger on top or along the rod grip on accuracy casts.

As I said before, my problem is not really whether one uses the wrist or not as long as the cast is efficient. It is in telling beginners not to bend the wrist when the natural tendency is to bend the wrist.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

Not sure I get your point. In the photo the guy is using more wrist than Ru Paul. I'm pretty sure he was not advocating the swishy wrist cast.

I also understand that you can use wrist, I do, and I am sure you have seen me post this video before. This is Fredrick Hedman, who's casting makes Lefty look like a fat worm dunker.


By the way, This guy is a world class distance caster and did a 115' cast on a 3 wt., I believe in competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
when addressing teaching beginners, Lefty writes "use of the forearm with little or no wrist ....

my problem is not really whether one uses the wrist or not as long as the cast is efficient. It is in telling beginners not to bend the wrist when the natural tendency is to bend the wrist.
Like I said, he's probably avoiding the floppy cast because as YOU said, he advocates a lack of wrist. As I said, "If you get your thumb in the way and don't bend your wrist you can't get it back past 2 oclock. I rotate my rod and have a V grip going back and end with more of a thumb on top. What does Lefty have to say about that?

Last edited by Guest1; 03-13-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

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Originally Posted by noreaster View Post
I was fortunate to have a great Tai chi teacher who taught me many of the ways of the classics. Holding a rod for me was similar to using tai chi whip or tai chi sword. For these weapons a loose two finger grip was advocated. Thumb and index fingers; similar to a badminton raquette. That's not to say just 2 fingers held the rod or sword. But the focus in your mind was in these fingers. A loose relaxed grip was preferred.

The rational was that a loose grip allowed your weapon or rod to naturally become an extension of your body. No tension or white knuckles. A very loose wrist as well. The sword technique was called sticky sword. Contrary to the hard barbaric clanging of swords that we are used to seeing.

A softer approach was recommended. As well the elbow was always left relaxed and down. By properly weighting your legs (opposite of rod hand) you can swing and turn in the hips to get more power. Hope this makes sense.

I have found that the more tension free my limbs are the better my cast. Developing rod sensitivity is the name of the game.
noreaster, are you sure that wasn't a golf instructor an not Ti Chi! Stay loose dude.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

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Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
Reading that makes me wonder how long your rotator cuff will last. What I envision is that you're doing the 'chicken wing'-looking cast with your elbow way out to your side. If that's the case, be forewarned, it might hurt later. I like keeping my elbow close to my body. It improves accuracy and takes a bit less effort.

When Lefty was talking about the shelf I believe he meant imagine your elbow sliding along a shelf and not static just sitting and pivoting on it. Sliding along a straight line like a shelf would help in forming a straight line path.



I find just the opposite of what Lefty said about the thumb on top curing the 'wow' on the back cast. He ain't Borger but Steve Rajeff cured me of throwing the line in a curve on the back cast as you mention by a simple grip change to a semi-V on top grip.
Grip an imaginary rod right now with a thumb up grip and make an imaginary back cast. The most natural way to make the stop is to subconsciously twist the grip slightly so that your thumb turns inward towards you.
Now start the cast with a 'V' formed by your thumb and forefinger (V Grip as it was formerly called) When you make the stop because your hand is already rotated you won't tend to twist the rod as much and will cure some of the 'wow'.
The Three Point Grip is really nothing new. I have an old casting book from the 1950's in which it was described though it wasn't named the Three Point Grip back then.

A casting instructor really shouldn't teach form as that is largely determined on what the student favors because of prior experiences and/or musculature.
I favor the thums up grip for normal casting at normal fishing ranges. I'll twist my grip around somewhat as the cast lengthens. Instead of aiming with my finger I aim with my thmb nail and seem to get good results.

If you're casting sidearm I just can't picture a thumbs up cast. I just tried it with my imaginary rod and OUCH! That does hurt. Bring your elbow in and try the same action you would use for using a hatchet (which would involve bringing your elbow up) and then use that imaginary shelf to slide your elbow on for longer casts and hopefully your pain is gone and your accuracy and efficiency is up.
No expert here, just what works for me and what I've learned. I agree with the V grip tip. I learned it for badminton back in the day. This put the pivot or fulcrum point in the grip between thumb and index fingers. Much of the stroke floated in between the other three fingers.


Points of contact for the V-grip two finger grip.
Click the image to open in full size.

V-grip from above
Click the image to open in full size.

V-grip rotated. Thumb and index finger together in opposition. Other fingers relaxed.
Click the image to open in full size.

Rod as natural extension of limb. Hand, wrist, forearm straight and aligned.
Click the image to open in full size.

cheers
phil

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by troutnut4 View Post
noreaster, are you sure that wasn't a golf instructor an not Ti Chi! Stay loose dude.
Ha haaa Love it. I'm not disciplined enough to be good at golf. But I see the comparison. Ohh you should see my slice. It's not pretty
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
I find just the opposite of what Lefty said about the thumb on top curing the 'wow' on the back cast. He ain't Borger but Steve Rajeff cured me of throwing the line in a curve on the back cast as you mention by a simple grip change to a semi-V on top grip.

Grip an imaginary rod right now with a thumb up grip and make an imaginary back cast. The most natural way to make the stop is to subconsciously twist the grip slightly so that your thumb turns inward towards you.

Now start the cast with a 'V' formed by your thumb and forefinger (V Grip as it was formerly called) When you make the stop because your hand is already rotated you won't tend to twist the rod as much and will cure some of the 'wow'.
Take a look at the video below. The caster pronates his wrist and palm as he moves the rod for the backcast and then supinates it back for the forward cast. You can see the reel turn out more as he brings the rod back. Is this what you mean?

Some casters will start with the thumb on top grip but when they stop on the backcast, the thumb has rotated in and the reel out so that they are really stoping with more of a V grip. I watch the position of the reel to indicate wrist pronation or supination during the cast.

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Old 03-13-2013, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

Thank you all again for the advice and wisdom - it helps!

By watching that video (Silver's one above) I know that I do not cast with the reel that far tilted outward on the backcast, but I DO tilt it slightly...which is comfortable to me and I seem to do fine getting a straight backcast (i.e. no curve that Lefty says tends to happen if you do this).

And the v-grip posted above looks basically identical to how I grip the rod. This is FAR more comfortable to me than the thumb directly on top.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

Another for the V-Grip with relaxed hand and arm.

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

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Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
....... who's casting makes Lefty look like a fat worm dunker.
I just got off the phone with my Canadian friend Bill and he told me I should "stop tipping sacred cows." It was to good a line not to share.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
"stop tipping sacred cows."
Good one Dan!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbine
it's much more about what your casting looks like regardless of how you hold it
You got it, Turbine. Results, comfort and sometimes endurance.

Also a consideration is the esoteric discussion over what is technique and what is style? Someone else has already mentioned that they use different styles (or techinques). I think we all do. Lots of things enter into our decisions, wind velocity and direction, stealth needed or not, weight of the rig, backcast obstructions, type of presentation, on and on and on.

No one style/technique for me fits all circumstances. That applies to everything from stance, through angle of the rod in relation to the water, all the way to the grip.

For instance, I can blind cast for hours with a light rod and twist the reel position sideways if I want. But with a loaded Gulfstream weighing a full pound, it is not so comfortable doing so for hours. Nor is using a thumb on top grip either (especially on the backcast) on that rig.

So I wouldn't worry about style or technique, just try different ones in different circumstance and use what is comfortable for you, and what works for you in those circumstances. Don't try to mimic someone else to the exclusion of experimentation. Your concentration should be on what I think are the two fundamental objectives. Loop shape, loop shape, loop shape, and comfort, comfort, comfort.

My objective is to have fun, not beat myself up. It is not a "no pain no gain" endeavor for me - but the exact opposite.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

i can't argue with lefty's principles after seeing him cast in peson. he makes shooting the entire fly line out look as easy as any short cast. he tried to give me a few pointers that i'm sure didn't stick as much as just watching him cast.
i couldn't tell you what my casts look like but i can tell you that when i try to hard, they turn to ****.
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