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Old 04-07-2013, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

If you have a decent overhead cast you should easily have a good roll cast. They are pretty much the same thing. The biggest difference is as you mentioned, getting the rod to load using the water.
In its simplest form, slowly bring the rod up until the tip is past your head and the D-Loop forms behind you. The anchor point should be close to your side. If it's in front of you you not only lose some loading potential but you could hook yourself when the fly leaves the water. Allow the line to stop and plant itself firmly in the water then begin your forward roll cast stroke exactly as you would an overhead forward stroke. Allowing the line to stop plants the line in the water and helps with loading the rod. Many people rush the cast and fail to allow the line to rest and have problems getting a good rod load. Slowly accelerate to a very fast acceleration just before the very firm and deliberate stop. Don't stop low or your fly will stop low and possibly crash into the water and puddle the line.
I just love the grace of good roll casts. There are times in tight streams that the entire day is spent roll casting. They come in handy just picking a fly up in preparation for the next overhead cast, for freeing flies stuck on logs and for getting sinking lines to the surface in preparation for the pick up. A good roll cast is a powerful tool to have.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

1. Hold the line against the rod handle, then release it at the end of the forward cast, or execute a downward haul. Both of these will insure that there's no slack in the line and that the rod is fully loaded. 2. Make sure you begin the forward cast just before the fly stops moving and the D loop begins to collapase. 3. If you're casting a weight forward line, make sure at least the end of the belly is inside the rod tip. If it isn't, the running line isn't thick enough to transmit all the power of the cast. 4. Make sure you are using a loading move at the start of the forward cast. Begin the cast by keeping your wrist locked and rotating you're body forward - the angle of the rod shouldn't change - then execute your power snap.

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Old 04-07-2013, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbchilton View Post
I like the video, but I disagree with the meat cleaver analogy. One of the Rajeff brothers uses a wet paint brush to demonstrate. To throw water in a straight line you need to flick the brush forward. Use the same motion with your fly rod. If you bring the rod down hard at the water you will get the poor oval loop Mel talks about. Come down hard, but flick the rod forward. This advice has helped me with my roll cast.
There are many analogies that are used to give newbies an image of the cast. The hammer analogy of pounding a nail into a vertical wall suggests the hard stop. There is the apple on stick analogy that is like the bubble analogy of fly guy.

I do like the paint brush analogy best because it incorporates a flick at the stop to flick the paint off of the bristles. This flick or "micro wrist" is needed to get the rod tip out of the way of the line

There are two elements at work here. One is the hard stop and tipping down or the rod tip to get it out of the way of the following fly line. The other is the direction of the hard stop. This is one of Lefty Kreh's rules => the cast will go in the direction the rod tip is going at the stop.

What I would recommend is that the caster separate these two aspects. The hard stop determines the efficiency of energy transfer for the rod to the line. The direction of the stop determines the direction of the cast.

So work on the hard stop with the micro wrist but vary the directionality until you get a good loop going neither too much in the air or down towards the water.

http://www.fedflyfishers.org/Portals...20Richards.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofamberley View Post
From watching videos, I think maybe I was applying too much force too early in the cast, rather than directing it more forwards. Do you guys ever haul while roll casting? Is that a thing?
Yes, you can haul but I would not suggest a beginner do that. Put that line under the finger initially.

For you advanced casters here is an example of a haul during a dynamic roll cast. See the instruction starting at 4:41 in the video below.

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Last edited by silver creek; 04-07-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

As I just learned recently how to consistently and successfully execute roll casts, you may take this advice with a grain of salt . . .

First, a few words about the videos. They are excellent, and I personally watched Mel K. 's videos probably a hundred times. I learned the belgian cast, the side arm cast, and the double haul just by watching Mel's instructional videos (downUP!). But after nearly five years, the roll cast eluded me so thoroughly that I gave up even trying to roll cast farther than about 20 feet. And then while watching the video yet one more time, I saw two things I'd never seen before.

First, I saw his hand come up to the top of his hat. And second, Mel was throwing a straight right punch at the middle of someone's chest, complete with shoulder drop. In fact, it looked an awful lot like he was throwing a tae kwon do right punch in waders and a funny hat.

I only noticed this because I stopped watching Mel cast. I watched his hand.

So my first piece of advice is when you watch these videos, don't watch these guys cast. Of course you want to, because they make it all look so easy. But the good stuff is in watching their hands.

During a normal cast, my hand gets no higher than about my chin to maybe about the top of my ear. And I was always trying to flick the rod in roll casts; using way too much wrist, way too early, or sending too much energy downward, sometimes even smacking the water with my rod tip.

Suddenly, right there on the couch, a small storm of pieces fell into place.

Of course, I immediately went out and tried roll casting using this insight.

Well, it took time, but even that first day I had several roll casts exceed thirty feet. To say I was giddy is probably an understatement.

A few other things I learned since that day:

While you can come straight back and go straight forward with a roll cast, it's easier if when you draw the line back, it's a few feet to your casting side, kind of like a belgian cast. In fact, I commonly think in terms of 'oval motion' when roll casting. In other words, I try to draw skinny ovals with my rod tip. Draw back on the outside, go forward on the inside.

Also, the roll cast is easier if the fly is 'skating' along the surface right before you begin the forward cast. It's not necessary, but it is easier.

The 'load' phase during a roll cast is actually when your hand starts forward. The inertia of the line bends the rod tip backwards, creating a moment of potential or 'stored' energy, which is converted to kinetic energy the moment you change acceleration. So it is in your best interests to accelerate as smoothly as possible to that hard stop, and to delay it as long as possible, i.e., by leaning forward and dropping/throwing the shoulder, increasing the total time/distance of acceleration before the stop. There, I knew taking physics in high school would come in handy at least once in my life.

To create a larger D-loop, simply ensure your casting hand comes back higher than on a normal cast. Higher than your hat, maybe. This is not the only way to get a bigger D, but it is pretty easy.

Allow the line to pass your casting shoulder before starting your forward cast. Coming to it isn't good enough. Besides, there is no D loop until the line passes your shoulder.

Whether you think you're flicking paint, hitting a wall with a hammer, or throwing a punch, aim your thumb for a point a few feet above your target, so that when you make your hard stop, your rod tip should flex and point at your target, not hit the water in front of you. This forces the energy release to move forward away from you, with very little or no downward component. If your cast collapses before getting to your leader, or your leader piles up in a little clump at the end of your roll cast, chances are high you sent too much energy downward. Aim a bit higher.

Anyway, that's about all I know about rollcasting. and I don't know if any of that will help you. I just thought since I just learned to do it, I might say something that might give you an 'ah, ha!' moment.

Peace.
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Last edited by rangerrich99; 04-08-2013 at 01:18 AM. Reason: spellin, of corse . . .
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

the last video posted (above this post) is essentially the switch cast. There is no stop in it. I have used this technique when fishing indicators for a long time, but never realized it had a name. The roll cast that most of us learned puts us under a lot of pressure to make a perfect forward cast because by stopping the cast we lose tension in the line. Don't stop, keep it moving. The other key is the low to high movement of the rod. Sweep it back low and then raise it to the firing position.

One last comment, only a couple of post mentioned the actual fly line. For the first 30 feet, the WF and the DT line are the same. But after that, the WF thin running line can't support the roll cast. If one believes longer roll casts are necessary, either a DT line or spey casting techniques are much easier to employ than all the other nuances that are needed to make a 45 foot roll cast with a 30 foot head.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

Wow thanks for the replies everyone! I am truly grateful for your knowledge and willingness to help me. It looks like a lot of people have contrasting opinions of what works, but that means that there must be many things that work. I will try these things and find what works for me.
The running line section of my WF not being thick enough to carry the cast is something that I hadn't considered before, and makes a lot of sense. Next time I'm out I will be sure to pay more attention to it.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

Make a big "D" behind you, to lift as much line off the water as possible. the water tension will be on the line tip and leader.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerrich99 View Post

First, a few words about the videos. They are excellent....... But after nearly five years, the roll cast eluded me so thoroughly that I gave up even trying to roll cast farther than about 20 feet. And then while watching the video yet one more time, I saw two things I'd never seen before.

First, I saw his hand come up to the top of his hat. And second, Mel was throwing a straight right punch at the middle of someone's chest, complete with shoulder drop. In fact, it looked an awful lot like he was throwing a tae kwon do right punch in waders and a funny hat.

I only noticed this because I stopped watching Mel cast. I watched his hand.

Peace.
It is great that you learned by OBSERVATION. It will stick with you much longer.

The roll cast can be thought of as half of a regular false cast. That is the traditional way of explaining a roll cast but for some folks it remains a mystery and it need not be. I agree with Jackster when he says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
If you have a decent overhead cast you should easily have a good roll cast. They are pretty much the same thing.

It is the basic casting stroke that Gary Borger taught me and it is the basic cast that Jason Borger recommends in his book, Nature of Flycasting.

Here's Jason demonstrating the start and stop points of the "foundation cast".

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Examine the series of photos and illustrations in the casting blog by Gary Borger below.

Gary Borger Blog Archive Casting From the Shoulder

Note that the casting stroke drawing of Gary Borger and the stop motion photo below are very similar in their starting and stopping position.

In this high speed stop motion study, we see the actual bending of the rod and the stroke path of the hand, elbow, and shoulder. This compact overhead stroke is the foundation stroke that the FFF suggests as a beginning stroke. It is the same stroke that forms the basis for the teaching and casting of Mel Krieger, Gary and Jason Borger. You can see the similarities of this stroke, the foundation stroke, and the roll cast stroke.

Click the image to open in full size.

The stop motion photo comes from the Henry's Fork Lodge owned by Nelson Ishiyama. Nelson and I are college buddies, and he is the editor of Mel Krieger's book, The Essence of Flycasting.

The similarities of this simple stroke upon which you can build is why I use this stroke as the basic casting stroke and not other casting stroke such as Left Kreh's.

Gary likes to have fun when teaching basic casting and he calls his students "casting devils" because they make devil horns when they pantomime the cast.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

kingo... aren't you glad you asked?

You've been given a whole lot of information and opinions and now you get to sort it all out and find the fix. Ain't digital lessons grand?
An instructor could look at what you're doing and fix it in a heartbeat or at least give you the cure, it's up to you if you're a good listener and practice what you learned.
Second best to live instruction would be posting a video of your cast.

Some of what I read here might need a bit of further explanation.
I larger D-loop is great just as long as you have room behind you to make it. If you don't then you need line on the water in front of you to load the rod. Without a large D-Loop, just the line tip and leader probably won't be enough resistance to load the rod.

There are many opinions of whether to stop the line before the forward stroke or not.
1:35 here is Uncle Mels recommendation...

Sexy Loops, a conglomeration of some of the worlds finest fly casters promotes stopping the line for the basic roll cast:
Roll Cast

and now another link that says either way is correct depending on other variables!
The Dynamic Roll Cast | MidCurrent

You'll probably find yourself doing a combination of much of what you've read on this thread. All are good suggestions, some will work best under certain conditions so it's best to have a variety of tools in your casting tool box. Just make sure your basics are good which will give you a solid foundation to build on and to fall back on if need be.
Here's wishing you the best of luck on finding the fixes that work for you.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: What is wrong with my roll cast?

I am glad! Thank you guys for your wealth of knowledge and help. I'll tell you what; I'm going to try the things that people mentioned on here to see how they apply to me, and if I am still having trouble, I will film myself casting and post it on here. Thanks again!
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