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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2013, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
So far we have :

Vertical Pros:

3) Finding range. (*why can't that be done off-vertical?)

The range can be dialed in if the forward delivery cast is done vertically, but a non vertical delivery is not accurate. Why?

Because in a vertical delivery, the casting plane is in a direct line with the target and all you need to do is to get the distance right.

With a non vertical delivery, the greater the angle off to the side the rod casting plane is, the harder it is to hit the target. Too much power, you get a curve to the left for a right hander. Too little power and you get a curve off to the right for a right hander. Remember that this is how a sidearm over powered and underpowered curve caste are made. Not only does the over and under powered off vertical cast place the line angle to the the target off a bit BUT a curve take a longer path so it both the angle will be off and the cast will fall short.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

Quote:
and all you need to do is to get the distance right.
The "range" in everything I've ever done has always BEEN the distance. Whether in the military on the rifle or artillery range, or at the golf driving range.the targets always have the distance marked on them or known before hand from a topo map or rangefinder on the periscope, for the old navy guys. In fact, in the military the "distance" is called out as "range" and referred to as "range" (ie. "maximum effective range").

It is the "direction" or "azmuth" that is much easier with an overhead cast because it doesn't change much with line speed variations, height above the target at turnover, loop size at turnover and so on. When the loop straightens out it is going straight down. All you have to do is go straight back and forth with the rod once you have the direction.

With a 45 degree cast it is not coming straight down but on a 45 degree angle. So both loop size, height above the water at turnover, turnover speed are all variables as well as the point it space where the rod tip stops, because that determines the direction the line will go initially.

But for a lot of fishing, accuracy is not that important especially if you haven't a clue where the fish are, if any,.

But there is no doubt that it is much easier, in light wind, to get the direction right with vertical casting.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

The Belgium or the Oval cast is my go to cast when I am casting heavy flies. Just today, I did a vertical cast and a sneaky pete hit the inside flap of my hat and missed my right ear thanks to the buffs that I wore to cover my face and ears.
I am having difficulties to open my loop for larger flies in vertical casting, especially when I have higher ground behind me. It is either I am ducking or the flies hitting the rod. But that could be just a problem for a newbie.
However, Non-Vertical or Belgian cast helps me a lot. All I have to do is doing 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock counter clockwise. Regarding the accuracy, I think following thru after your forward cast increase the accuracy, just like the golf swing.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

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Originally Posted by runningfish View Post
Regarding the accuracy, I think following thru after your forward cast increase the accuracy, just like the golf swing.
I'm not sure equating a golf swing with a casting stroke is that very similar.
For the most part you are stopping the rod to make the fly go. It's the direction the rod tip is going at the stop that plays a huge part in the direction the fly ends up going.
If you stop a golf club mid-swing usually bad things happen.
The popular analogies used to help describe and visualize a proper casting stroke involve accelerating to a stop, Some of these descriptions are flicking paint off of a paint brush, tossing liquid out of a glass, lobbing an apple stuck on a stick, throwing a dart and so on.

wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.
The best way to explain it is that the fly hovers over the area in false casting to help me judge both direction and distance. Now that you've forced me into thinking about it, maybe it's that point in time when the fly is changing direction between the forward and backward stroke. In photography I believe they call this instant the peak of action.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

I agree with silvercreeks response to my statement concerning the wind knots. However, by it's nature, the Belgium cast does have the legs in a 3 dem. plane. IMHO this leads to an opening of the loop and a more ineffectual distance cast. I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

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Originally Posted by bobbrown View Post
I agree with silvercreeks response to my statement concerning the wind knots. However, by it's nature, the Belgium cast does have the legs in a 3 dem. plane. IMHO this leads to an opening of the loop and a more ineffectual distance cast. I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.
Every single handed distance competitor I have seen uses the vertical cast.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

Quote:
wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.
It doesn't surprise me, Jackster, since off-vertical casting is not nearly so accurate - in reasonably calm conditions.

Let me put it another way, that is much easier to visualize. Imagine a fly coming down on top of a 2 foot diameter hula hoop sitting on the ground. You have a perfectly round target 2 feet in diameter to hit.

Now imagine casting at that same hula hoop propped up at a 45 degree angle on one side. The diameter in the "distance" axis is the same. But the diameter in the "direction" axis is much smaller than 2 feet.

That's the "effective" target width when casting a rod angled @45 degrees. Now that is presuming that fly and rod legs of the loop are exactly parallel AND that the cast trajectory is such that the loop straightens out at exactly ground level, OR stops at the right spot above that narrowed circle, extends fully without any hook, and falls vertically into the full circle. Either way, you have a narrowed target to hit.

But the distance does not change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBrown
I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.
Bob, I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but I would be reluctant to advise anyone to pattern their casting after anyone if what you mean is to immitate their style or technique. What I think IS important is to learn the fundamentals, then experiment to find the best way for you to execute those fundamentals your own way. Remember too, that tournaments, whether distance or accuracy, are not fishing. I would bet money that if there were a video of Joan Wulff casting for tarpon on a windy day, her stroke would look absolutely nothing like the one we are used to seeing on her videos.
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Last edited by wjc; 04-22-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

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Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
I'm not sure equating a golf swing with a casting stroke is that very similar.
For the most part you are stopping the rod to make the fly go. It's the direction the rod tip is going at the stop that plays a huge part in the direction the fly ends up going.
If you stop a golf club mid-swing usually bad things happen.
The popular analogies used to help describe and visualize a proper casting stroke involve accelerating to a stop, Some of these descriptions are flicking paint off of a paint brush, tossing liquid out of a glass, lobbing an apple stuck on a stick, throwing a dart and so on.

wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.
The best way to explain it is that the fly hovers over the area in false casting to help me judge both direction and distance. Now that you've forced me into thinking about it, maybe it's that point in time when the fly is changing direction between the forward and backward stroke. In photography I believe they call this instant the peak of action.
Of course, in golf if you stop mid-swing or right after you hit the ball many things will happen and injuries will also happen. Oh well, I guess the golf swing analogy didn't quite fit into what I was trying to say.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

I would think the great distance casters have a firm grasp of casting fundamentals. You can tweak the fundamentals to you own particular style but.....IMHO....you'll pay in the long run. Stay with the basics and watch and learn from the pros
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Vertical casting vs non-vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBrown
I would think the great distance casters have a firm grasp of casting fundamentals. You can tweak the fundamentals to you own particular style but.....IMHO....you'll pay in the long run. Stay with the basics and watch and learn from the pros.
I agree. We may simply be using different symantics and definitions. Casting fundamentals are nothing more than derivitives of laws of physics.

The widely divergent style difference between Lefty and Steve Rajeff both are based on identical fundamental casting mechanics. Style develops around the fundamentals: it does not attempt (sucessfully) to change them.

My point was:
Quote:
What I think IS important is to learn the fundamentals, then experiment to find the best way for you to execute those fundamentals your own way. Remember too, that tournaments, whether distance or accuracy, are not fishing.
The reason I say this is because some people cannot cast well using the Steve Rajeff style or the Lefty style or the Paul Arden style etc. Everyone needs to experiment to find his own "default" style for different casts and different conditions. It's a long term, personal exploration.
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