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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Uplining

Thanks for your input. Time for a question. I was casting with about 20 feet of WF11 line outside of the rod tip. This should be about 220 grains out side of the rod tip and 110 grains inside the rod tip based on the head weight of an 11 weight line. The line inside the tip does add to the load. If I was double hauling a DT6 line with 40 feet of line outside of the rod tip, what would be the grain weight load on the rod? I am stroking the rod faster now with the lighter line so that is part of the equation.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Uplining

There's a joke in there I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. I cracked me up though.

There's a lot of variables here. First of all, as you know the laws of physics require we put the effort you add to the cast, not just the weight of the line in or out of the rod tip. All rods have a grain window which as I have said a number of times, in single hand rods is large and forgiving. However, the upper end is likely defined by the likelyhood you will bust your rod if you haul with a good stroke.

The bottom end isLower than many people are capable of doing. A really top notch caster could probably cast a 1 wt. line on a 10 wt. rod. As I said, the grain window for a single hand rod is very large and forgiving.

Then there is the rating stated on the rod vs. what the rod really is. Look at a 6 wt. Sage VT2. It is really a 7.15. There are some, including Sage, that are far more over the stated weight than that. A 6 wt. Guideline Procast XPe is actually an 8.3 There are some makers like Winston that pretty much don't overrate their rods. This is why the whole generic question, "should I overline?" is kind of irrelavent if you don't know what the rod really is. The way the line is constructed makes a difference as well.

The weight of the line that's out of the rod tip is only one variable in a much more complex equation.

Last edited by Guest1; 05-07-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Uplining

To answer my own question, I came up with about 215 grains outside the rod tip and about 40 grains inside the rod tip. The grains outside are roughly equal to the first 20 feet of a WF11 line but the grains inside are obviously less than the rest of an 11 weight head. Diver Dan did an excellent job of explaining all the variables.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:14 PM
 
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Default Re: Uplining

What fish do you plan to catch with that 11 wt line?
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: Uplining

I'm not sure of the reason for the question. No question it can be done. Lasse Karlsson has a video of him casting a 12 wt Rio Outbound on a 3 wt, 6'6" Echo Rod (particularly noted for their strength).


Note how low the end of the line is as it comes by him on the forward cast.
As I recall, he was able to cast further with the 12wt than with a 3wt that day on that rod. But how often do you need to cast a 3 wt line 90 or 100 feet?

Like Swirl, I have broken only 2 rods while casting. One was an overlined rod a friend wanted me to cast to see how far it would cast. It snapped on the first presentation cast. I have refused to do that from that day on. The other was one of my own rods that was very well used, and I was really, really pushing it, though it was not overlined. It undoubetedly had gotten a ding or 10 over its lifetime.

I've played more with underlining than overlining, and prefer long heads to short - and the reason is so I can fine-tune the line weight by varying line weight outside the tip, among other reasons.

Although this is heresy of the highest order, I don't subscribe to the "load the rod more" theory for short casts. I subscribe to the "match the line weight/taper to the conditions (including fly/popper size/weight/wind resistance/fish species), and the rod to the line weight" theory.

Nor do I suscribe to the theory that overlining slows the "action" of a fast rod. What it does is cause it to load lower down. I think people confuse "stiffness" with "action". The "stiffer" the rod, the "slower" it is - regardless of its rebound speed. I think the terms "slow" and "fast" are poor words to describe the action and "tip-flex' etc. are much more explicit and less confusing.

I have a very stiff slow-action 12wt.RPLX rod which I "overline" with the old tarpon taper Rio 12 wt. That particular line is too heavy for my xi3 for me. I fish either a 10wt Cortland Liquid floating or a 11 wt liguid floating on that rod depending on the wind and fly.

One perfect casting day I was distance practicing, casting line weights from 4 wt to 8 wt on a Sage TCR 8wt with an ERN of over a 10 wt. All but the 4 and 8 wts were SA MED lines. The 4 and 8 wts were old unknown brand WFs. It cast well, but the rod vibration got my elbow bones to chattering and was a painful experience that I would not do again. My longest casts came with a 6 wt MED on that rod. If it were blowing slightly I'd use a seven MED, more wind and I use a shorter head (than an MED) in a seven.

But even with a short billfish line, I get the most comfortable results with an overhang of almost exactly half the head length in runing line outside the tip for longish casts. For sight fishing or casting to spooky fish, I use the lightest line that's comfortable to cast.

So if an 11 wt on a 6 wt rod is the most comfortable for you, then use it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Uplining

Silver creek

Freshwater bass are my primary target with that rod and I sometimes use a small Colorado spinner with a bushy fly.

Wjc

Excellent post. You mentioned elbow pain and that is the main reason I prefer a slow motion roll/spey/Belgian style cast combined with a two handed technique. I do not false cast anymore as that was probably the genesis of my aching joints along with advancing age.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Uplining

You should consider getting an actual two hand rod. I fish for Smallies all the time with them. Since I started using them I don't have the yearly tennis elbow and it is a lot easier on what is left of my back. Even if you don't swicth all the way over to two handers, it will give your body a break and keep you more comfortable. I still use single hand rods, in fact a bit more than when I first started the two hander. When I first started casting two handers the single hand rods basically gathered dust for the first few years. Now days I often bring both.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Uplining

Diver Dan

That is the best solution. I bought my first two handed rod (Sage brownie) 25 years ago and still fish with it 90% of the time. The 6 weight is a custom rod and a gift to me from my late father. I feel guilty letting it collect dust but not as guilty as I would feel if I broke it doing something stupid. Maybe I should save it for special trips and back off the grain weight. i have plenty of dusty single handed rods to experiment with. Thanks for your input.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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Default Re: Uplining

Quote:
Originally Posted by speycracker View Post
Silver creek

Freshwater bass are my primary target with that rod and I sometimes use a small Colorado spinner with a bushy fly.
So the over lining is to get more line mass to propel a heavier or bushier fly but not for long distances.

My concern was that you were using the 11 wt to catch fish that required an 11 wt rod like a tarpon. It seems to me that the 6 wt could handle the fish you are after. As long as you are aware of the point at which the rod begins to break down during the cast, I think you are going to be OK.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Uplining

Silver

That's pretty much it.
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