Line question

ctshooter

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I had a few min this afternoon and did a little casting practice, I started with my older 8' 6wt, and it was a disaster, couldn't get anything to work and it felt like I had to "pound" the rod to get anything out of it.

Decided to try the rod I just built, 8' 4wt, and I can make it do anything I want, doesn't feel like work, I can even double haul and use up my entire casting area, 20-30 yards easy.

I'm beginning to think the older rod is not really a 6 wt, and I think it's why I have had such a hard time trying to learn with it.

Is there any sort of test or measurement I can do to check this?

I don't know anyone local, so I'm pretty much on my own.

Thanks in advance
 

Ard

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Try this; The Common Cents System

After you browse the site and understand the instructions here is some material Copied from another source...........

[Copy]
1. Trap your rod by the handle parallel to the floor with the tip of the rod more than 1/3 the rod's length, higher than the floor. For example, you need to have the rod parallel to the floor and more than 3' off the floor for a 9' rod. I'd give it a foot to spare.

2. Take a small paper clip and unbend one end so it makes an 'S' shape. Find a small plastic bag.

3. Hang the plastic bag from the rod tip using the 'S' shaped clip, and then measure the distance from the tip to the floor and be precise.

4. Put pennies that are shiney and newer than 1996 into the bag till you have bent the rod tip to 1/3 the length of the rod from the measurement you got in step 3.

5. So for an easy example, lets say in step 3 you had a 9' rod and got a measurement of exactly 4.0 feet from the tip of the rod to the floor. Then in step 4 you got enough pennies in the bag to get a measurement of precisely 1.0 feet from the rod tip to the floor. Take the pennies and count them. For this example lets say you are testing an Orvis 'Zero Gravity Midflex' 5 wt., 9' rod. The number of pennies you count will be 53. This gives you an ERN, or actual rod weight of 6.5.

I would avoid the new nonstandard pennies, as I am not sure they are using the same slug to stamp them as the old style pennies. If they do any penny newer than 1996 is good as long as it is still shiney. This works because there is a known weight for these pennies.
[End Copy]
 

ctshooter

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The old rod is a "sportfisher cfl580"

Basically a 30+ year old Kmart special I bought with my lawn cutting money when I was about 14. I have been trying to learn to fly fish for awhile.
 

ctshooter

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Thanks for the info.

If I understand the charts, it took 68 pennies to deflect the rod 1/3 or 32" for an 8' rod, I get a "ERN" that's off the chart or someplace close to a 9wt? Also it would be a really slow rod based on the diagram that shows the "bend curve", it flexes all the way to the handle.

If anyone that understands this better than I do could double check, I would be very greatful.

With that information, would the fact I have to fight it so hard be caused by having it under weighted so badly?
 

Ard

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Yes,

Wow,

I have some deep flexing rods and I like fishing them. Most are small for small streams. I once had a 9' Lami that would go clear into the cork. It was a 7 weight and could be tiring to fish with all day. If you have a #9 rod with that action you may wish to upgrade to more of a mid action stick. The slow rods cast nice but when you start reaching past their sweet range they can be hard to control. Casts collapsing and poor accuracy are 2 things I remember, it's been a long time ago.

Ard
 

ctshooter

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Thank you

Upgrading in the near future is not really an option, due to other life issues, I have to "run what I brung", don't want to leave the wife with a bunch of stuff to sell or pass on.

I will probably get my last season in the spring if all goes well.

Thank you again for all the help
 

ia_trouter

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Thank you

Upgrading in the near future is not really an option, due to other life issues, I have to "run what I brung", don't want to leave the wife with a bunch of stuff to sell or pass on.

I will probably get my last season in the spring if all goes well.

Thank you again for all the help
That was a sobering post CT and we won't pry, but it sounds like the custom built 4WT works for you and may be the better rig to prep for spring. A 4 WT is a forum favorite for chasing a number of species.
 

ctshooter

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Thanks, no worries, enjoy every day and don't sweat the small stuff.

I'm happy to have what I have, and can still do a few things I have always wanted to do.

I put one of those "Cutthroat" leaders on today and now I don't get little piles of curled up leader at the end of my casts, so much to learn.

Thanks to all for the help
 

ctshooter

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So anyone near NW CT have an 8/9 wt rod that I can borrow the reel for a few casts to verify my theory about this rod, before I go out and buy more line that is not correct?

I'll come to you and bring doughnuts.
 

learning2fly

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Not sure if your line has anything to do with it? Maybe its too obvious but weight forward makes a huge difference
 

silver creek

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Not sure if your line has anything to do with it? Maybe its too obvious but weight forward makes a huge difference
With all due respect, you are mistaken. It is neither obvious or correct.

A standard WF line is exactly like the DT for the first 30 feet, plus a DT continues to have the thick body so it loads more mass than a WF line as the casts get longer. So the WF would actually load the rod less with more line out.

As the CCS measurement showed, the problem is not that the 4 wt fly line over loads his rod on long cast, it is that he cannot get the rod to load. So the rod is way underlined.

The profile of a Cortland fly line is below



The only difference would be a specialty WF line like a bass bug WF line has an extremely short front taper like a bass bug taper. The Scientific Anglers bass bug taper below has a 3.0 ft front taper vs an 8.0 front taper for the standard Cortland WF fly line above.



According to the CCS measurement the rod is not even the 6 wt that is on the rod. Hence the need to borrow a 8/9 wt fly line to test the rod.
 

ctshooter

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Thank you for the charts, the technical information us starting to bring this together for me much better.

And yes I am using a 6WF/F line on that rod, well not any longer :rolleyes:

I also have a grain scale, so I will be weighing the line later too, just to make sure what it is.
 
T

turbineblade

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Bingo -- Rip hit it.

I generally prefer a "standard" head length WF line for most conditions. However, for SH spey casts and long distance casts, I like the longer head WF lines quite a bit.

If you fish big water like I often do, the WF is really the way to go. The ability to stand far back on a flat and really toss a streamer out to the fish is a benefit here -- it's a lot easier to shoot a WF running like out there. HOwever, I don't generally like the extreme WF lines (bass taper, SW taper, etc.) because I don't fish particularly large flies often. If I did, they would be a good choice.

If you fish smaller water, the difference between a DT and WF line is minimal or non-existent (given the same front taper, etc.), so take your pick.
 

silver creek

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For longer casts.... you can shoot more line with the thin running line than you can with the fat belly DT.
Exactly! +2

Read what Bruce Richards of Scientific Anglers has to say about DT vs WF lines:

"Almost all WF lines have heads that are 35-40 feet long. Add a 9-foot leader and the distance to the fly from the end of the head is 44- to 49-feet. Up to this distance when both DT and WF lines control and roll cast the same. There are not many typical trout fishing situations that require longer casts. What this all means is that DT and WF lines work pretty much the same at the distances we fish most often. "

Double Taper Versus Weight Forward: Which is Really Better? | Fly Fishing Info Center

So unless you need the extra distance of a WF line or the front weighting of a bass bug taper, get a DT fly line. As a practical matter I use DT for 4 wt rods and below and WF for 5 wt and above.

If you need to save money, you can even make your own WF fly lines. We used to do that in the old days and you can still do that now.

When I began fly fishing, I didn't have much money. Both my wife and I fly fished, so it required two of every piece of equipment. One place I could save was to make my own fly rods, so I made two graphite rods from a Fenwick HMG blanks.

I also made my own WF fly lines from a single DT fly line and Cortland running fly line. It is very simple. Cut the DT fly line in half. Remove the coating from the back end with acetone and form a loop with the core by forming a loop and whip finishing it with nylon thread. Then coat the whip finish with flexible Pliobond cement.



Do the same by cutting the package of shooting fly line in half and forming a loop with it's core using the method above.

Connect the two loops and you have a home made WF fly line. You can reuse the running line and replace the section of DT fly line as it wears out.

I use Cortland 444 running line that comes in several diameters so you can tailor it to the weight of DT line you are using.





Cortland 444SL Classic Running Line at BEARSDEN.COM

If you do not need two WF lines, you can keep the half section of DT line on the spool and store it in a ziplock bag for later use.

With this system, you can make the front section as long as you want. If half of a DT line is too much, keep cutting back the line until is perfect for your casting style.

It seems to me that the Welded Joint Repair of joining two section of fly line could make 2 relatively seamless home made WF fly lines from a single DT fly line. Once you fine tune the front section of DT, you can weld the running line to make a seamless custom WF line.

The running line portion of WF fly lines rarely wear out completely. With the next WF fly line that wears out, I'm going to see if I can cut it and weld it back together. If that works, I have some DT fly line that I can measure and cut to see if I can make a welded WF line a DT and the old WF running line.
 

greg_h

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So anyone near NW CT have an 8/9 wt rod that I can borrow the reel for a few casts to verify my theory about this rod, before I go out and buy more line that is not correct?
QUOTE]

I was going to make that suggestion before I read to the bottom of the page and saw you had thought of it. In our casting club there are some very good casters, and yet at times they are puzzled by the difficulties that some rods provide. A change of even 1 weight of line is sometimes all that is needed.
Is there a fishing club or chapter of FFF or TU nearby? It would be nice to get a second opinion on the choice of the bette weight line.
 

ctshooter

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I will be getting together with the local TU, education is a great thing.

As far as this rod, I could probably take it down to an 8 easy, but that is not what I want, so this will probably see a lot of closet time. I have always used ultra light gear for my spinning rods, bass fishing with 2lb test line. So I'm trying to head in the same direction with fly, I would love to find a 6'6" 2wt for the Brookie streams.
 
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