Loading the rod

[wjc]

It's almost a mantra. I believe there is way too much concern with "loading the rod", especially on short casts, to the detriment of learning how to cast.

The object is not to feel the rod loading but to feel the weight of the line. If there is only one foot of line out the rod tip, it is not even necessary to feel it - and certainly not to really "Load the rod". Anyone can cast a foot of line without feeling it, or 2 feet, or 10 feet or 20 feet and it doesn't take a huge "rod load" to do it.

It is when you start getting more line in the air that feeling the line becomes more important.

As far as feeling a rod load and unload, that can be done without a line even strung on the rod - and tells you nothing but that the rod is loading against its own inertia or unloading against your stop and then counterflexing. All without a line on it.

So you should not be trying to feel the rod load; instead, you should be trying to feel what the line is doing. Do you feel the weight of the line in your line hand shortly after the backcast or forward false cast? If you are shooting line into the backcast, how fast is it flying out? Same with the forward cast if fishing at night.

What you are striving for is to get the rod to begin moving the end of the line at the same time you begin rotating the rod AND in the same direction as you are rotating the rod.

If you begin rotating the rod forward too soon, the end of your line will will speed up, but going the opposite way your rod is rotating. So you have wasted that portion of your forward rotation until the end of the line starts going forward - very possibly without your fly on it.

If you had a great backcast and start forward too late, the line will spring forward at turnover, creating slack that will have to be removed with a portion of your rotation before the end of the line begins moving. And of course, the line will be dropping toward the ground as well.

So, your line hand is very important to your timing. But how do you decifer what you are feeling into useful information? By watching your backcast! And feeling and hearing line shooting through the guides too. I strongly urge that people watch their backcasts a good percentage of the time when they are practicing or having a bad day when fishing.

By watching your backcast while feeling with your line hand, you will learn what different backcasts feel like.

And after a while, when you feel a marginal backcast while casting 3/0 tarpon flies or large heavy nymphs, you will decide in a split second whether to abort the cast or go for it and do the extreme stretch and haul followed by the duck and cringe - protecting your most valuable body parts.

I actually took a short video today of casting a 4 wt line on a Sage 12 wt Xi3. It is very simple to cast short distances with it. Long distances are not so easy or fun though because short casting strokes are still required with a 4 wt line on it, and 12 wts are not so easy to accelerate and decelerate in a short casting arc, especially for a guy under 150 lbs.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Ard]

Hi Jim,

Great posting here!

Ard

 

[wjc]

Thanks, Ard!

 

[Ard]

I stuck this thread Jim,

These are the kind of posts that made the forum great, being a sticky will keep it easy to find for reference when people ask questions about exactly what you have laid out here.

Ard

 

[rangerrich99]

Good post.

decipher. Sorry, the spelling Nazi inside me had to post that.

Peace.

 

[silver creek]

My opinion is that what is being discussed comes down to timing. Whether you feel the rod load or see the fly line unfurl, what is being felt or seen are the clues that allow the caster to perform the proper casting motions at the proper time.

In my opinion it not either feeling the load or watching the fly line. I think that is a false dichotomy. You can both feel the rod and watch the fly line. One sense reinforces the other. In addition to feeling the fly rod load, our body has proprioception.

Proprioception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our body has the unique ability to determine the location of our body parts in space, its location relative to each other body part, and to know the amount of force and resistance we are both sensing and exerting. Without proprioception, we would not be able to stand up in complete darkness and cast a fly at fish that we hear feeding.

It is proprioception that enables us to cast our fly line without looking at the line or the fly rod. We are able to place our eyes on the target and deliver the fly to it. How is that possible?

It is possible because our mind, which controls our body, learns through repetition what levels of proprioception feedback and actions result in the best possible cast regardless of how much line is out or what weight and shape of fly we are casting. We call it this type of learning muscle memory, a type of procedural memory based on repetition.

It is the same ability that allows a quarterback to throw a pass 40 yards down the field so that the football and receiver meet in a 4 dimensional universe of space and time. It is quite remarkable.

So whatever sense we are using whether feeling or seeing, the sense is not the end product itself. It is what we use to build muscle memory so the fly casts become automatic. The more senses we use to build that muscle memory, the more quickly we learn. We should both use sight and proprioception.

Proprioception is automatic. I think what Jim is saying is that we should not rely on proprioception alone. We should add visual cues as well. One of the reasons a beginner's forward cast is most often better than the backcast is that the beginner automatically looks at the forward cast. So placing a beginner's feet at a 45 degree angle to the direction of the cast allows the beginner to turn and see his backcast.

In my opinion it does not matter whether the cast is short or long. In my experience a beginner actually does better on short casts because the tendency of a beginner is to immediately start the forward cast after the stop on the back cast. When the casts become longer and the delay between the backcast and forward cast becomes longer, there is more opportunity for mistiming. I believe this is actually when looking at the backcast is most valuable as a teaching aid.

 

[calftail]

I agree here that we should look at our backcast, but looking can lead to some serious faults if we can't recover from the shoulder swing and the rod path that swing can take on the back and forward cast. In my case I don't want to have to manipulate my normal fishing cast stance and posture to gain distance for the lawn, parking lot, tournament shot. Thinking about this I can't recall ever see a fly fisher in actual fishing conditions watching his backcast, with experience most fisherman develop a sense for what's behind them and what their cast is doing. I peek on the practice field but like to keep peeking to a minimum because it alters the way I'd normally cast when in fishing conditions.

I'm with you on left hand control....an absolute essential. It's one thing that Ritz drilled into my head after studying his methods in "A Fly Fishers Life". I have saved many a cast with hauls. I constantly monitor my casting for any slack between the line hand and the stripping guide and consciously try to keep tension in the line by following the cast with my left hand....both the rod hand and the left hand are in concert. I see so many casters make the backcast and the left hand doesn't follow the flow of the back and forward movements that are taking place.

I also like your experiment with the 4wt line and the 12 weight rod. I have long thought that a fly rod will cast any weight fly line. To me in the end it's how you fish and your habits that make a comfortable rig to fish.

 

[james w 3 3]

Turning 45 degrees to the target and watching the back cast is exactly how I was taught over 20 years ago. Just as excellent advice now as it was then, and something I still do when trying a new rod or line.

Nice thread guys, thanks!

 

[bloomagoo]

I always watch my backcast when testing an unfamiliar rod or rod/line combination. It's really the only way I know to match the timing and feel. Once, that's established I can turn my attention forward again.

 

[silver creek]

I agree here that we should look at our backcast, but looking can lead to some serious faults if we can't recover from the shoulder swing and the rod path that swing can take on the back and forward cast. In my case I don't want to have to manipulate my normal fishing cast stance and posture to gain distance for the lawn, parking lot, tournament shot. Thinking about this I can't recall ever see a fly fisher in actual fishing conditions watching his backcast, with experience most fisherman develop a sense for what's behind them and what their cast is doing. I peek on the practice field but like to keep peeking to a minimum because it alters the way I'd normally cast when in fishing conditions.

I agree with you that when a caster rotates their head to look at their backcast, the tendency is to move the fly rod tip in an arc convex away from the body as seen from above. This result in a curve to the fly cast, a curve to the left for a right handed caster. But for a beginner this is preferable to a mistimed cast.

I will also agree that while fishing it is rare to look at the backcast. The only time I look my backcast is when my backcast can catch on the tops of vegetation or when I am aiming my backcast into a space between trees.

But when a cast must be as perfect as possible even the best fly casters watch their backcasts.

If you watch tournament casters like Steve Rajeff, they routinely look at their backcast because even a small mistiming could be the difference between first place and 5th place. Here's a video of Steve Rajeff and Peter Kutzer of Orvis with their double haul videos. Both look at their backcasts as their casts get longer and longer.

What this tells me is that even at the highest level of casting excellence, visual feedback is important, not only to track the direction of the backcast but to time the beginning of the forward cast.

 

[calftail]

But when a cast must be as perfect as possible even the best fly casters watch their backcasts.[/quote]

I guess what we have to do here is separate tournament style from actual flyfishing. In my case in a fishing condition my focus is on a target. I never take my eye from that target. My backcast has been calculated according to the conditions...wind and aerial mends,etc. and the forward and backcast cast is timed to replicate the visual sense...not any feeling I have in the backcast of the line tugging or the rod bending. The timing for my casts are the same for both the forward cast and the backcast. I start my backcast just a moment before the line unrolls in the forward cast and that timing I translate to the backcast.

To me ..watching the backcast has been valuable to me if I stand with my shoulders parallel to the target and cast side-arm. In this case nothing seems to go off track but over head the rod takes off and I lose control.

 

[silver creek]

When Steve Rajeff casts for accuracy, he watches his forward cast and the target. The difference I think is that with distance, you are shooting line on your backcast and the timing on when to begin the backcast is much more critical than at the shorter distances of the accuracy competition. You will notice that Steve doesn't not shoot line during the accuracy phase, he has his distance to target set with the correct amount to line out of the guides before he does the lay down cast.

Steve Rajeff . Trout accuracy - YouTube

 

[lurker66]

This is the kind of post new guys like me need. With the rods I have, im not sure if I feel them load or not. I do feel, hear and see my line. So im more tuned into what my line is doing. By watching my loop, both forward and back, I can feel when my line wants something more.

Ill keep practicing, yall keep posting. Thanks for an excellent thread.

 

[silver creek]

This is the kind of post new guys like me need. With the rods I have, im not sure if I feel them load or not. I do feel, hear and see my line. So im more tuned into what my line is doing. By watching my loop, both forward and back, I can feel when my line wants something more.

Ill keep practicing, yall keep posting. Thanks for an excellent thread.

I need to clarify what rod load is and is not. Most caster identify rod "load" as the bending and unbending of the fly rod during the cast. But this is not the ONLY feedback that we get during a fly cast.

There is also the change in momentum and inertia of the fly line during a fly cast. Even in the absence of rod "load," the caster can feel the momentum and inertia changes of the fly line as it alternates during a fly cast. This is entirely separate from rod "load." We can cast with a pool cue as Simon Gawesworth has or without a fly rod at all. When there is no rod that flexes, there is no rod "load;" but the momentum and inertial changes of the cast are felt through the stiff pool cue by proprioception.

"Many years ago, when I was doing the demonstration circuit of fly-fishing shows in the UK, I had a routine that showed it was possible to cast without any rod flex. I took my old pool cue and whipped a couple of rod rings (one at the tip) and a reel seat on it. During the demos I would cast a WF7 fly line with this cue. I could cast it 50 feet or so, but it took effort to do this as there was no flex in the cue to help. The pool cue was five feet long, so the only way I could generate any line speed to make a cast was to utilize arm and wrist speed and the five-foot length of leverage to basically throw out the fly line. I could throw a very tight loop but had to really work at getting the cast to go any distance.

Another part of the demonstration was to put the pool cue down and thread the fly line through a one-inch split ring. I cupped the split ring in my right thumb and index finger and proceeded to cast with only my hand, arm, and wrist. Again, there is no flex or spring power when casting this way, and I had negated the five-foot length of leverage. This shows that it is possible to cast without any flex or leverage length and that the power only came from my arm and wrist speed. However, it could never be called efficient!"

Fly Rod Casting - Fly Fisherman

 

[bigspencer]

One has to have some additional line running to shoot a little on the backcast anyways, if you're going to throw long. I think it's a lot easier to make your delivery while you've already extended your hand-drift, and that comes from extending the line roughly prior to that drift...y/n? At least that's what seems to always work...
SteveD

 

[wolfglen]

Over the past almost 60 years I've had the chance to get a lot of fly fishing packed in there.

While I agree that you need to know what the fly line in back of you is doing, a caution beginners about watching it too much.

If one stands sideways to watch the line, it will become a habit and when you have to stand the opposite way for balance or footing, it all goes to pot.

I have no idea how many times I've spent a half hour poling the boat to get a guy in position, then say "Redfish at 10 o'clock, 70' see him?"
The anglers says, "NO"
Then it's "at 11 o'clock, see him?"
"No"
"12 o'clock, 50'"
"No."
"1 o'clock, 50' "
"Okay"
"Okay hell, cast!"
And so the angler starts casting, keeps looking at that damn back cast three or four times and then says
"Where is he?"

It's like teaching combat shooting, You wouldn't say," Now, watch your gun, watch your hand grab the gun, watch the barrel come out of the holster, watch the thumb cock the hammer, watch the finger pull the triger, now shoot!

It's much easer to remember that if the tip stops at 1, the loop will be tight, if the tip is to stop at 1, the rod handle stops at one, thus, just look out of the corner of your eye and watch the rod handle stop at 1. Immediately, shift your eyes back to your target and as soon as the target is acquired, cast.

Otherwise, if you actually watch the back cast, you will usually have almost finished your forecast before you've acquired the target. Like a bullet, once that line is on it's way, it's hard to change the direction.

Jack

 

[silver creek]

Over the past almost 60 years I've had the chance to get a lot of fly fishing packed in there.

While I agree that you need to know what the fly line in back of you is doing, a caution beginners about watching it too much.

It's much easer to remember that if the tip stops at 1, the loop will be tight, if the tip is to stop at 1, the rod handle stops at one, thus, just look out of the corner of your eye and watch the rod handle stop at 1. Immediately, shift your eyes back to your target and as soon as the target is acquired, cast.

Otherwise, if you actually watch the back cast, you will usually have almost finished your forecast before you've acquired the target. Like a bullet, once that line is on it's way, it's hard to change the direction.

Jack

Jack,

I find that beginners, especially the ones that have spin fished, think that their rod tip is at 1 but really it is at 3. They have an incorrect perception created by years of muscle memory from spin fishing that depends wrist motion. When they cannot rely on their proprioception to determine the rod position, they require visual cues to correct what they think they are doing.

There are problems with watching your backcast while fishing; but in order to cast so you do not need to watch the backcast during fishing, the caster FIRST needs to know where his backcast is. I think this is best done while practicing the backcast when the goal of the practice is NOT to hit a target on the forward cast but to practice the casting stroke and timing that determines the direction and length of the backcast. When they build that muscle memory, then they no longer need to watch the backcast.

I had Thanksgiving dinner over at Nancy and Gary Borger's home. Gary is putting the final touches on a fly casting teaching DVD video that will sell for $15. I saw sections that were finished and I think it will be a wonderful resource for beginning casters. Gary showed me how he gets a beginner to stop at 1:00 and I plan to include this technique when I teach.

In part of the video, he teaches the Galway cast which was developed on the Galway River. This is a cast in which both the forward (toward the target) and back (away from the target) casts are made with forward casting strokes. So there is no backcast.

The Galway is the first casting stroke that is made in the Shadow Cast from the River Runs Through It.

Rotating Thumb

Galway cast fly fishing | How to learn this casting technique the easy way

 

[wolfglen]

That's why I teach students to look at their rod handle, if it is at l o'clock, so is the rod.

I see no problem in them looking over their shoulder to watch the line a few times while learning, but not turning their body as that changes all of the body movements.

 

[bigspencer]

Ditto wolfglen's...there's no problem in it, but you/we have to make sure of not throwing across our bodies(>180deg)..which can be a challenge with all the twisting and turning....
OP should practice by watching what lengths he has to strip in for a clean backcast, if there's some sort of limitation behind onesself...for a few false casts, or one false cast...or maybe no false casts.
It depends on what length of rod you're using...but some of today's short rods can shoot a lot more line than the short rods of the past generations of graphite. The main thing is not to overshoot your angles..ie throwing across your body = far greater than 180deg...(backcast loop to forward loop). That's why many of our sidearm casts are pretty clean = being close to the 180deg mark. Our sidearm casts are easier to visually examine while in progress.

 

[guest63]

Can you guys post some of your fly casting videos here? I can better visualize what you are saying by seeing your videos. Thanks.