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The Fly Cast Discuss fly casting with the expert, ask for help, learn to cast farther, increase your accuracy, troubleshoot your cast.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2014, 09:12 PM
 
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Location: Wisconsin
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Default Re: Fly Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by winstonwt View Post
To properly cast a fly rod you need water to properly load the rod for your backcast,casting on the grass or in the parking lot will not work.Go to winstonrods.com and watch the 11 part video's that feature Joan Wulff probably the best caster along with Steve Rajeff in the world.She starts with the basics then progresses up each level.
You are thinking of a roll cast which is best practiced on water. A standard pickup backcast from the grass and then a forward cast to the grass will work just fine.

The Federation of Fly Fisher's "Casting Clinic" for beginning fly casting instructions are for practicing on the grass.

http://www.fedflyfishers.org/Portals....Al%20Kyte.pdf

“Continue this sequence of let- ting both the back cast and forward cast drop to the grass until the far part of your forward- cast line is landing first. Then start making your back cast and forward cast without dropping the fly line to the grass in between. This completes your pick-up and lay-down cast.”

Here is Joan Wulff grass casting.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2014, 09:24 PM
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winstonwt will become famous soon enoughwinstonwt will become famous soon enough
Talking Re: Fly Line

Watch the videos and you might possibly learn something.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2014, 06:38 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
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Default Re: Fly Line

Lefty Kreh, Fly Fisherman Magazine, Sage, The Atlanta Fly Fishing School, and many other instructors not only say that lawn practice is acceptable but is the best way to practice accuracy using moveable targets.



See pg 40 “Lawn Practice” in Fly Casting Fundamentals by Lefty Kreh
Google Books

Fly-Casting Fundamentals: Distance, Accuracy, Roll Casts, Hauling, Sinking ... - Lefty Kreh - Google Books



Basic Casting - Fly Fisherman

”Take your assembled rod, reel, line, and leader to a grassy park. Don’t practice in a parking lot as abrasive pavement rapidly wears out a fly line. You’ll need a large open area without obstructions such as trees, wires, or fences.



Sage: Casting Accuracy Tips

”A Few Drills

In fly casting, great things happen on the grass. Practice is important and practicing the right way is even more-so.



http://www.atlantaflyfishingschool.c...the_month.html

”Q. What is the best way to begin casting?

A. This is one of the most frequently asked questions regarding casting. It usually comes in the form of “I just got a rod…where do I begin”? Or “How do I teach my spouse / kids to cast a fly rod”?

The first cast we teach students at Atlanta Fly Fishing School is the pick up and lay down cast. To learn this cast, find a lawn or field area at least 80 feet long without obstructions.



Fly Casting: Scandinavian Style - Henrik Mortensen - Google Books

Start on the lawn! ……. I strongly suggest that you practice your basic skills on a lawn.


Fly fishing casts: roll and overhead, how to spot and overcome faults

”roll casts work best on water; you can practice overhead casts on grass


Fly Casting Practice Drills | Chucking Fluff

”To practice this put out several small hula hoops, plates or something small to aim at onto a grass field or large lawn at different distances and angles to where you are standing.


Saltwater Fly Fishing Schools - Blackfly School

”Free Professional Fly Casting Lessons is a staple at the Blackfly Outfitter Fly Shop and we will always take the time to take beginning students out to our front lawn to teach the basic mechanics of casting.


Here is my friend Gary Borger during several practice sessions we did in his back yard. Note the different clothing

Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


There are specific advantages for a beginner learning on grass.

The instructor can lay out a straight rope on the ground to demonstrate the SLP for the rod tip on a side arm stroke. The beginner starts by performing only the side arm back cast, allowing the fly line to drop and compares the position of his fly line with the rope. Then he does the forward sidearm cast, again comparing the position of the fly line to the rope.

By initially casting sidearm, the beginner can see his backcast, which is more difficult to do if one starts with the overhead cast.

Most beginners will flop their wrist, resulting in the fly line landed “behind” (to the caster’s side) of the rope.

When acceptable back and forward lay downs are made, the instructor can show the beginner how to link the backcast and forward casts together, again using the SLP of the rope as a guide for how the fly line should follow the rope.

Once the caster can do linked casts sidearm, the instructor gradually, raises the angle of the fly rod until an overhead cast is performed.

Here’s Lefty Kreh using two ropes to show how to keep the loop in the path, and to tighten the loops.

Click the image to open in full size.

Yesterday our TU chapter taught fly casting to youth at our county’s Sporting Heritage Day. Using a sidearm technique for the youngest kids allows them to use two arms to cast. It is similar to swinging a bat, although you need to modify the “stroke” to get them to a SLP with a shorter stroke path.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.



Click the image to open in full size.
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Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Last edited by silver creek; 08-24-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2014, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Fly Line

As per Gary Borger whom I own and read every book he wrote both ways are correct.Here is a what he says in his book Presentation page 223,Standard pickup.A good cast can only be made with a good beginning,and a good beginning means a good pickup.p.s.You cannot make a good back cast until the line tip is moving smoothly toward you.Practicing the smooth lift of the line (pickup) on the lawn or on the casting pond is a sure-fire way to improve your casting.My own test casting has shown me that you get better load of the rod with the fly line on the water.As you lift the rod up towards you for the backcast the tip of the rod flexes forward to bend and load the rod.This is just my own observation and findings.Thanks for listening.

---------- Post added at 07:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 AM ----------

What I was getting at here was that with the line on the water you get resistance in the tip better than sliding across the lawn, therefore I can feel the difference in different rods when casting them.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:17 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
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Default Re: Fly Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by winstonwt View Post

What I was getting at here was that with the line on the water you get resistance in the tip better than sliding across the lawn, therefore I can feel the difference in different rods when casting them.
Here's the thing. The original post was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by saucebox11 View Post
Does the type of line really make a big difference when casting? I have this full sinking line that casts like a dream, barely have to even try to get it out there and then there is this floating line i have that is like a full time job to cast it out. what would cause that?
A full sinking line is actually MORE difficult to cast on water because you need to strip enough of it in so you can lift it from the water. So I took your post to include SINKING lines which was the original post, but I see that you must have meant a floating line.

I will agree 100% that you get better loading with a FLOATING off of the water. That is a benefit in loading for the backcast.

However, the proximity of convenience of a lawn, in my opinion, is a real benefit. The more convenient a location is, the more often a person will practice, even if it is just for 15 minutes on the back yard.

If you teach them on water, you do give them the benefit of an easier backcast, BUT you have not taught them how they can use ropes, targets, hula hoops, etc, to practice at home. The placement of rope lines to form a casting lane and targets is easily duplicated at home. This is a real advantage for a beginner.

Finally, if loading off the grass is an issue, it is very simple to make a "grass" leader that will simulate the extra loading that water gives you. An instructor can make different grass leaders that have different degrees of resistance so he/she can fine tune the resistance of the grass leader to a pickup.

The grass leader (the original article is on the Summer 1998 issue of The Loop by Al Buhr) is used to simulate water for the practicing of roll and spey casts on grass but it can certainly be used for the pickup and lay down cast. Floyd Dean wrote about roll casting with a grass leader back in 2002.

The Roll Cast

"It's best to practice this cast on water because the water creates the friction and drag necessary for a good roll cast. The friction of the water on the line in the roll cast helps load, (bend) the rod. Learning how to load the rod is important for your future development in casting expertise. If water is not available, it is possible to learn this on grass using a grass leader. This was developed by Al Buhr in Oregon for practicing Spey casting.


Take a spool of monofiliment, 15 to 30 lb. test. Make a cut at 15". This will be your butt section. Now, tie a blood knot. Move down the leader seven inches. Make another cut and tie another blood knot. After you have done this about 15 - 20 times you will end up with about a 9' grass leader with a blood knot every 6 inches. Leave fifteen inches on the end for a tippet and tie on a piece of yarn. Trim the stubs at about 1/2" or less. (You have to tailor the length of the stubs to the length of the grass. The longer the grass the shorter the stubs should be. )The stubs will cause drag on the grass. They will also resemble barbed wire. This leader can be dangerous so be sure to wear eye protection! This is the formula for a Spey rod. You can make the leader longer or shorter according to your needs."


Jason Borger's 2001 book, The Nature of Fly Casting, includes a section on grass leaders

http://fishfliesandwater.com/gear-ri...-grass-leader/

Click the image to open in full size.

Here is a previous discussion from 2011 about grass leaders.

some questions

You wrote, "To properly cast a fly rod you need water to properly load the rod for your backcast, casting on the grass or in the parking lot will not work."

I have no problem properly loading a fly rod off of grass. I think anyone that has fly casted of any length of time can do so without difficulty.

However, for teaching beginners, here's the bottom line for me. Almost all beginners will have a worse backcast than a forward cast, even when there is water present. So water will help the loading for the backcast. I completely agree with you on that. So if water is nearby, practice on water. But if water is not nearby, a lawn is fine.

The advantage is that if I can teach the beginner a good back cast off of grass, he/she will have an even better back cast off of water.
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Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Last edited by silver creek; 08-24-2014 at 10:56 AM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2014, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Fly Line

Yes...a leader is indeed needed on the line for enough tapered weight, OTHW just the line itself will severly overpower the rodtip. Remember to wash off your line after practicing on the lawn. If one can afford it, it's best to devote a line specifically to lawn practice and the other for the stream...
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