Line weight/rod weight question

[PKelly]

Any thoughts on this are appreciated...

I have not been flyfishing for many years, but when I started I was told that a fly rod is able to cast a line that is one wt. up or down from the rod wt. Hence, a 5wt could cast a 4-5wt line. However, after an experience this morning, I am starting to doubt this advice.

Normally I fish in moderately swift, skinny rivers with trees on either side so the cast is not going too far beyond about 25 feet. In addition, I usually have the line and rod match. This morning I fished a small still pond, so I took my 4wt Scott A2 along with spools of WF-3F and WF-4F. Starting with the 3, I had all kinds of trouble shooting line--it seemed like I could only get it so far before it ran out of steam and piled up on itself. Later on, I switched to the 4, and all of my problems went away. I was able to shoot line almost any distance and my accuracy seemed to return. So the hopefully not-stupid question is, must the line and rod always match, and if not, is the technique for casting a lighter line more fine?

Thanks again,

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi Patrick,

Here is a link to a thread about this same subject. It may be helpful.

Here are my thoughts. Graphite rods are marvelous things and some will cast a large range of lines. Some rods do seem to have a sweet spot and they only want to cast one certain line. That line may or may not be the line wt that the rod manufacture recommends. Sometimes the manufacture seems to miss the target.

The most important aspect of casting a rod over/under lined is the caster. I believe that over/under lining a rod has lot to do with the ability of the caster to slow or speed up his timing to accommodate the line and rod dynamics. When a rod is underlined the caster has to compensate for the reduce wt of the line out of the tip. So if a 5wt rod cast a 5wt line very well then a 4wt line will have to have more line out of the tip to compensate for the reduce line weight. Saltwater fishers do this all the time. In high wind the saltwater caster may go down a line size to reduce the line diameter with less wind resistance. The saltwater caster then increases the line out of the tip by 10' or so to compensate for the lighter line. The caster must be able to carry the additional line in the air. When you over line a rod you have to compensate for the additional line weight out of the tip by reducing the amount of line out of the tip.

Along with adjusting the amount of line out of the tip when you under/over line you may have to slow or speed up your timing. This is why I think that over/under lining a rod should only be down with accomplished casters with a good deal of experience. An experienced caster can feel the cast and understand what is needed to match the rod action and line weight.

There is one other consideration when lining a rod. The manufacturing of fly rods does not allow the lay up of graphite to be absolutely the same with every rod. Lefty Kreh states in "Lefty's Little Library of Fly Fishing". This is a direct quote from his book: "...I would be willing to bet that if you took 20 rods from any top-line manufacturer, all designated as 6-weight, there would probably be at least one 5-weight and one 7-weight rod in the batch. The rod manufacturers will tell you that". So it is understandable that some people find certain rods work better over/under lined.

So Patrick, getting back to your question about your 4wt. It is not surprising that on very short cast that the 4wt line worked better. If you could have extended more line out of the tip with the 3wt line, it would have cast better. In your situation the 4wt is a better choice but that doesn't mean the rod cant cast a 3wt quite well in certain conditions.

Frank

 

[PKelly]

Thanks Frank, your comments are very accurate. I did have to noticeably adjust my casting with the 3wt, but due to the surrounding flora, could never get the right amount of line out to compensate without landing branches. I also think that rod length plays a small role in this, but this particular rod deos seem to have a "sweet spot" when loaded with 4wt line.

 

[dorian.ducker]

Patrick, I started answering your question and then realized it would just be easier for you to look up a thread that discussed this same question. I believe the thread is under Gear/Rods forum.

 

[PKelly]

Yeah, I probably should have done a search first, but all the info seems to check out. That thread is very helpful. Thanks guys,

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi Patric,

You know I would bet that if you tried a 5wt on your rod that it would work very well on those shot cast. One problem is you may not be able to make as soft a cast as you could with the 4wt. If you opened your loop a bit a 5wt may be great.

What length is your 4wt rod?

Frank

 

[PKelly]

Hi Frank,

My 4wt is an 8', but I also have a 9' 5wt rod (with a different reel). I tried the 5wt reel and line on the 4wt rod yesterday when I was practicing. I was hitting my target fairly well at a range of distances, both into and away from a stiff breeze, but I did not try this rig on the water. Now it would appear that I have another excuse to go to the local pond!

 

[shorthaul]

So Patrick, getting back to your question about your 4wt. It is not surprising that on very short cast that the 4wt line worked better.

Hi Patrick---Frank hit it on the head

The air temperature might have something to do with how your line acts on a certain day also---i grabbed a rod and went steelheading and realized i had a tropical saltwater line on it and spent the day stretching my line ---the same nice supple line in ohio wont shoot on a hot day on the florida flats

 

[sparkie]

I'm not sure if you guys covered this, but I don't have much time to read this on my break. I was having problems for a couple of months casting with 5wt line in my 5wt rod. I was told by my buddies father-in-law to try 6wt line instead, So last yesterday I bought some and it made a big difference. I was able to feel, control, cast farther, and make a good presentation with the line. So You could try and go one up on your line weight.

 

[flyflingerandy]

The reason the 6wt worked better than the 5wt, would have to be because all fly rods (except Orvis and Winston WT 2-5wt) are rated for DT lines, not WF. To get the same flex and feel, if it is a 5wt rod, that is a DT5F or WF6F, hence why some rods are labeled 5/6, 4/5, etc. Also, the casting feel is a completely subjective thing. Entirely up to the caster.

 

[shorthaul]

The reason the 6wt worked better than the 5wt, would have to be because all fly rods (except Orvis and Winston WT 2-5wt) are rated for DT lines, not WF. To get the same flex and feel, if it is a 5wt rod, that is a DT5F or WF6F, hence why some rods are labeled 5/6, 4/5, etc. Also, the casting feel is a completely subjective thing. Entirely up to the caster.

A double taper 5wt and a weight forward 5wt ---weigh the same in the first 30ft---the rod wont know which one you have on---the dual weights on the rod is a range to compensate for ther casters style, efficiency, purpose and manufacturing tolerances. An experienced caster should be able to cast each line equally well.

now-a-days its difficult for me to find a double tapered line in a store---i looked for a dt6f last week and called 3 stores and the manufactures rep and settled for a 5 and underlined the rod

 

[tlcrep]

The reason the 6wt worked better than the 5wt, would have to be because all fly rods (except Orvis and Winston WT 2-5wt) are rated for DT lines, not WF. To get the same flex and feel, if it is a 5wt rod, that is a DT5F or WF6F, hence why some rods are labeled 5/6, 4/5, etc. Also, the casting feel is a completely subjective thing. Entirely up to the caster.

I dont suppose you can find a cite for this? Because i am fairly certain that
rods used to be labeled 5/6, 5 wf 6 double tapper. The front of the weight forward weighs less, so the wf weighs. Now since almost everyone uses a a WF rod makers have taken off the second double taper designation.

Their are many reasons why the 6 weight line could work better than the 5 wt. First of all, The faster the rod, the heavier the line the more it will slow the rod down. So if you like a 5 weight that has a action of X, and you get a rod that is a whole weight in action faster, putting a whole weight line faster on it will make it cast better for you. Like if you like a slow action rod and someone gives you a 5 weight xp, putting on a 6 weight line will make it cast better for you.

Lets say you have a standard action rod, you may like the heavier line better because it has a more pronounced load in the road, and helps you know when to stop on your backcast.

 

[sparkie]

I don't know if you were trying to agree with me or not. But I do have a fast action 5 wt and it works great. As for other action rods I couldn't tell you what would happen because this is my first rod and new to this sport. I don't know if other people on this forum are trying to diss this idea, but all I was trying to do is give out some information that was passed down to me that has helped me out tremendously.

 

[shorthaul]

A 5 wt rod generally takes a 5 wt line---in the first 30 ft the 2 lines will weigh the same---and this puts a certain stress on the rod while casting----the more efficient your casting is, the more load you put into the rod.
the less efficient you are the less load is put into the rod and the 6 wt will feel better to you--we cant evaluate your casting on the forum very easily

 

[crashq]

The reason the 6wt worked better than the 5wt, would have to be because all fly rods (except Orvis and Winston WT 2-5wt) are rated for DT lines, not WF.

This is an old myth. It may have been true in the past, but is not now. When you consider the casting distance for most trout fishing 20-45 feet, you will see why. The AFTMA weight rating for a flyline is based on the first 30 feet of a flyline excluding the tip, which is typically about a foot in length. If you are using a 8 foot rod with 30 feet of line out of the rod's tiptop and a 7-1/2 foot leader this adds up to a 46-1/2 foot cast if the line straightened completely. Assuming 1-1/2 feet of slack, you get around a 45 foot cast (= 8ft +1 ft +30ft +7.5ft). A DT line and a WF line with 30 foot belly sections, the same tapers, and the same belly thickness/density will have identical performance out to about 45 feet. I have had this discussion before on other. Bruce Richards of Scientific Anglers posted in the thread confirming this. He also wrote a short article about it.

Most trout rods are designed to optimally cast about 30 feet give or take 5-10 feet) of line. As you get up toward the saltwater line weights, the casts are typically longer and the rods are designed to carry longer lengths of line to accommodate these longer distances, but this doesn't generally apply to trout weight rods (especially 4wt and under). Thus if you are usually casting shorter distances than these rods are designed for, you may want to go up a line weight. If you typically cast longer distances than the rods are designed for, you may want to up a line weight. If you typically use one or two line weights heavier for every casting situation at nominal distances (20-40 feet), you probably prefer a slower action rod than you are using.

 

[kayla]

I'm thinking about getting my son-in-law a rod and reel, etc., for his birthday in mid-March. I know nothing about fishing, but I read the interviews with you and Tom Morgan, so I know it's pretty specialized.

My son-in-law lives between Dallas and Ft. Worth, Texas. He and my daughter and my grandchildren go to lakes, small rivers and streams to hike and picnic, etc. He tells me he has done some fishing. I was going to get a lifetime membership in Trout Unlimited and give him one of the Sage rods with reel that come with the membership, until I read the Tom Morgan (Winston) interviews.

What weight rod, length of hand-knotted leader, type and size of fly, type of reel, and so forth would you recommend in his situation? I don't want to get something he can't use or that won't work where he fishes.

Also, can you give me an idea of the prices on this equipment?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

kayla

Sent from my iPad

 

[turbineblade]

I'm thinking about getting my son-in-law a rod and reel, etc., for his birthday in mid-March. I know nothing about fishing, but I read the interviews with you and Tom Morgan, so I know it's pretty specialized.

My son-in-law lives between Dallas and Ft. Worth, Texas. He and my daughter and my grandchildren go to lakes, small rivers and streams to hike and picnic, etc. He tells me he has done some fishing. I was going to get a lifetime membership in Trout Unlimited and give him one of the Sage rods with reel that come with the membership, until I read the Tom Morgan (Winston) interviews.

What weight rod, length of hand-knotted leader, type and size of fly, type of reel, and so forth would you recommend in his situation? I don't want to get something he can't use or that won't work where he fishes.

Also, can you give me an idea of the prices on this equipment?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

kayla

Sent from my iPad

Since you mention trout unlimited I'd assume he would target trout? It's hard to go wrong with nearly any good fly rod and reel combo -- something in the 9 foot length, 4-weight, 5-weight or 6-weight size is pretty easy to find a use for, for ANY fly fisherman . Generally with fly rods you get what you pay for, but there are some really good rods in the $150-300 range. I like TFOs quite a bit for the money, but that's just me and many others are good too.

 

[Mnflyfish]

I didn't read all the replies, and this was probly mentioned already, but each rod had its own character. It may cast a line wt up or down or be perfect matched. But not all rods are equal. In my experience, going up a wt is more common than goin down a wt.



Sent from my iPhone

 

[ditz]

IMO.....the manufacturers have gotten into the "FAST" rod race. I really believe that they are under rating rods intentionally to have the fastest rod. This is speaking in generalities of course. I have 2 5wt rods that I actually do use a 5 wt line with. I have a 2wt that feels good with up to and including a 5wt line. It will cast a 2wt line but it like heavier. I have 7wt that likes a 8wt line and I have a 9wt that works well with a 9wt. I have an 8wt that likes a 9wt line. I have an old glass Fenwick 5wt that likes a 4wt line. An old glass Heddon 7wt that likes a 7wt and a new cheap EC 5/6 wt that likes both a 5 and 6wt line. Whether a rod is fast or slow it will cast better with a certain wt line of a given design. Not all WF lines are created equal. Not all 5wt lines are 5wt lines. The whole weight system is out of control and is very confusing to new comers as well as old timers. It is too bad we have to buy multiple $70 lines to find one that works well on a new rod. I am sure it discourages new fishermen from pursuing this fine sport.

 

[silver creek]

I dont suppose you can find a cite for this? Because i am fairly certain that
rods used to be labeled 5/6, 5 wf 6 double tapper. The front of the weight forward weighs less, so the wf weighs. Now since almost everyone uses a a WF rod makers have taken off the second double taper designation.

You have it backwards.

Standard brands of WF and DT fly lines have the identical front taper and body for the first 30 feet for the same line wt. For example a WF and DT Orvis Wonder line 4 wt lines will be identical in line mass and profile for the first 30 feet.

See:

"DT and WF lines are generally the same in the front taper and belly"

Why Fish Double-Taper Fly Lines? | MidCurrent

AFTER the first 30 feet, the WF has less mass for equal lengths of line because it has running line and the DT has the thicker and heavier line belly.

See line chart and profile below:





Now consider the fly line profiles of the Cortland WF and DT 333 fly lines below.

When casting beyond 30 feet of fly line, you can see that the DT version of the fly line will gradually have greater mass for the distance of the cast BECAUSE the WF will be into the lighter running line. THEREFORE, when the cast is over 30 feet, the rod has to cast more mass with the DT version of the fly line than with the WF version. THEREFORE, the dual rating of a 5/6 fly rod is size 5 DT and size 6 WF fly line. Eventually for the identical longer cast, the mass of the DT 5 line will = the mass of the WF 6 fly line.

The reason that manufactures have removed the dual line designation is that it causes confusion (as it has in this case) AND because modern graphite fly rods can cast 3 line wts.