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-   -   Need different rod for streamers? (http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/4375-need-different-rod-streamers.html)

ducktrooper 05-21-2008 06:06 PM

Need different rod for streamers?
 
I'm a newbie so please go easy...have FF about 5 times now, mostly nymphing and wet flies. I'd like to know if I should get another rod and keep it rigged for streamer fishing? I had a heck of a time learning how to throw a 8' sinking line with a beaded wooly bugger on my TFO 5 wt rod(med/fast)


It seems like the rod flexed too much and strained to handle all that added weight. I was able to figure it out and catch fish but it was very hard/awkward. Should I get another rod, 6 or 7 wt, and keep it rigged for streamer fishing since many of the rivers in AR where I go call for that.

Suggestions? Thanks.

Frank Whiton 05-21-2008 06:20 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Hi Ducktropper,

You are saying an 8' line so I am assuming you are adding an 8' sinking line between your fly line and leader. Is that correct?

Frank

ducktrooper 05-21-2008 06:29 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
That's correct. I had about 5' of 5x tippet attached to the sinking line. My regular line is Rio Grand 5WF.

BigCliff 05-21-2008 08:41 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
First off, there's no need to go lighter than 3x or longer than 4' of leader for sunk line work.

You shouldn't need a different rod to fish a 8' sinking leader on a floating line with a weighted bugger. You just need to cast it differently.

With 20' of floating line in addition to the sinking stuff, do a roll cast to put it all on top. Then do one back cast and allow the line to shoot on the forward cast to its destination. You will probably also need to slow the casting stroke WAY down. It will feel like more of a lob than a normal fly cast.

ducktrooper 05-22-2008 08:02 AM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Thanks. A few follow ups. If I'm standing in 3'-4' of water to cast across stream to the deeper channel, how can I possibly roll cast? Once I have all that floating line at my waist from stripping, it seems like it would be difficult. Also, why wouldn't a stiffer and slightly heavier rod work better here with all the added weight?

I understand about casting slower, holding the rod higher, and keeping the tip from going dipping on backcast too much. I managed to figure out how to get the line out there but found myself having to false cast about 3-4 times to feed more line out before final cast.

Frank Whiton 05-22-2008 09:07 AM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Hi ducktrooper,

Here are my thoughts. I would lose the 8' of sinking line. Some people use them and like them but as you found out there are a bear to cast. If you have to use one cut it down to 3 or 4 feet.

I would much prefer:

1. A floating line with a weighted fly.

2. A floating line with an indicator, 9' leader and split shot just above the tippet.

3. A floating line with a sinking leader and a weighted fly. This would be a good application for a furled leader with some sink-it worked into the furled leader. You would need a short furled leader with a tippet added. You can buy sinking furled leaders. I have not tried this combination.

4. A floating line with an integrated sink tip with a short leader.

5. An integrated shooting head line like the Teeny #130 with a short leader.

I think any of these options would be a better combination than your 8' add on sink tip. With 1, 2 or 3 you can use your floating line. With the rest you will need a second spool for your reel and a new fly line. Your add on sink tip can be used for still water fishing.

In regards to your fly rod. The RIO Grand fly line is 1/2 line heavier than a standard 5wt fly line. Then you are adding 8' of add on sink tip. I don't think this is a good combination for a mid-flex rod. You need to change your setup or I think a heavier or faster rod would be better.

Frank

ducktrooper 05-22-2008 06:55 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Thanks Frank...those options really help and make sense as they allow me to avoid having to buy another rod and yet still get the fly to sink quickly. They also should help with making the cast a whole lot easier and less awkward.

I appreciate everybody's patience and helpfulness on this forum...I have found people's input to be a great resource and hope to be able to pass it on soon.

Joni 05-22-2008 08:12 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
I was going to add, I fish a JWF and a TFO Pro 10' plus a Far and Fine. All medium to slow. I have been fishin this way for many years and just watched a Kelly Galloup video and he does the same thing.
First off, I DO NOT WEIGHT MY FLIES. As you said, they add to the casting problem plus they hand right at the bottom no matter how long of leader.
I also HATE sink tips because they are WAY TOO HEAVY. I can cast a full sink VII line with ease but as you said, it is a workout with sink tips.
I use a full sink line to put my flies where I want. Now I am not talking Haresears, Pleasant tails, etc. nymphs that have a few wraps of lead or a bead, I am talking STREAMERS. NO CLOUSERS for this kid or at least no weighted dumbbell eyes. I generally use a TYPE II full sink and love it. Easy to cast, even with a glass or bamboo rod. I then start with a 4' leader (which is generally straight fluoro cause presentation doesn't really matter).
Netflix carries "Fishing Streamers for Trophy Trout" by Kelly. Check it out.

tlcrep 05-24-2008 04:41 AM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ducktrooper (Post 29198)
I'm a newbie so please go easy...have FF about 5 times now, mostly nymphing and wet flies. I'd like to know if I should get another rod and keep it rigged for streamer fishing? I had a heck of a time learning how to throw a 8' sinking line with a beaded wooly bugger on my TFO 5 wt rod(med/fast)


It seems like the rod flexed too much and strained to handle all that added weight. I was able to figure it out and catch fish but it was very hard/awkward. Should I get another rod, 6 or 7 wt, and keep it rigged for streamer fishing since many of the rivers in AR where I go call for that.

Suggestions? Thanks.

Why dont you buy a 5 or 6 weight fast rod from this sites fly shop, I think they let you try it out for free for 30 days. If it works out better keep it, if not return it. I think they even pay for return delivery! What great service Steve gives!!

I personally have always found it easier to throw big heavily weighted bugs with 4 split shot and a big ol hunking indicator with a really fast rod, like a tfo ticr (think steve carries this) or a Great Bay Rods EMG ($300, made in the USA). I personally like the GBR better than a axiom or ticr (both made in Korea), but with service like Steves take him up on it and get the tfo!! You cant do better than a free trial and he pays for shipping both ways! (free trial meaning you only return it if you arent satisfied, dont do it just to try it with no intention of buying it, that is just plain wrong).

Nooksack Mac 05-24-2008 07:42 PM

Re: Need different rod for streamers?
 
Re the 8-foot sinking leader you've been using:

I assume you mean one of the kind sold by Rio, Airflo, and S.A., with a plastic coating impregnated with lead or tungsten powder over a braided or mono core. These have their uses, but the problem with casting them when they're attached to the tapered tip end of a floating fly line is that too much casting energy is dissipated down the tapered floating tip, leaving too little to turn over the sinking "leader", which is more accurately described as a sink-tip. A splitshot-weighted leader (Frank Whiton's No. 2) can feel the same way, esp. if you try to use too much lead weight; and so can a heavily weighted streamer.

A better all-around solution is Frank's No. 4: a factory-made sink-tip line, probably rated as Extra Fast (Type 4 or more from S.A.; Type 6 from Cortland). Even these feel a little jerky in the turnover, compared with an all-floating or all-sinking line, but they work. You can find a lot of versions with 10', 12', or 15' sink tips. An integrated shooting head line like the Teeny (24-27' sinking head works well enough, though they're better for six-weight rods and above.

A digression for informational purposes: spey fishermen, of necessity, are experts at integrating separate sink tips (homemade sections of sinking line, sections of weighted-core line like T-13, or factory sink-tips as you're probably using) into floating belly spey lines as a system. Spey rods are very particular; they can cast a wide assortment of spey line types, but each line has to be properly chosen and configured in order to perform well on that rod. Most spey line systems have most or all of the front tapered tip cut back to a larger diameter and a loop added, to which various sinking heads, tips, or floating tips are connected loop-to-loop. A rough rule of thumb is that the sink tip should be two AFTMA sizes lighter than the floating belly. For single-hand rods, you can buy multi-tip lines that are designed the same.

A new integrated sink-tip line is the cheap fix for your rod. But one way or the other, you have to throw some serious weight to comfortably fish heavy flies near stream bottom, and that's asking a lot of a five-weight rod. It may be time to consider a heavier system. A seven-weight rod and line will do it easily and comfortably; it's not too heavy for trout, and it's good for bass, redfish, etc. Most fly anglers add other systems when the limits of their first one is reached (and of course, a five is a great all-around trout system). Moving up or down two weights is a logical approach - although in time, you may fill all the niches. I have outfits from 3 to 12.


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