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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2009, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

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Originally Posted by flyguy66 View Post
i demonstrate this in classes of unbelievers by executing a long double-haul cast with 3 false casts to form a good loop. on the 3rd, i launch the cast w/no forward haul and at the forward stop drop the fly rod and let it fall to the ground. the fly line shoots forward and the loop unfurls straight as an arrow and hits the same target i've been hitting. they all watch their backcasts after that.
When I've watched Lefty do this several times he usually explains how you can't really influence the forward cast much once the stop is made.
As for the back cast mirroring the forward, I can't quite understand that statement. When working with distance casters, I sometimes see they sweep the rod tip to the side a bit during the back cast. This causes a sideways swooping effect to the line. Their forward casts are arrow-straight with no hint of that swoop so the only downside I see in their doing this is a little less connection to the line therefore robbing them of a bit of power on the forward cast.

I agree totally that mcA is tailing and also found a quick fix for that being right in line with what you stated earlier in your post about power application. I tell folks to use the least amount of power needed to get the job done. Too little power is easily spotted and rectified... too much power introduces all sorts of issues not easily fixed by ones self.

Oh... and huge Kudo's to you with your work with PHW! You are a true statesman for sacrificing twice!
Question about PHW to you... are you aware or using the one-handed tying system with your students? If so, great isn't it? If not, PM me and I'll help set you up.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

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Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
There is certainly a debate about how long a caster should haul. Lefty Kreh advocates using a short haul. IMHO, this is fine for most fishing situations. To achieve maximum distance, however, a caster must use a long haul. (All the tournmament casters do.)

I do not believe a properly executed long haul causes tailing loops.

Certainly when false casting into a strong wind I use a short haul as it will be impossible to execute an upward haul without adding slack.

On my presentation cast into a wind I'll use a long downward haul.

Randy
i agree with you. i would say that the length of the forward haul (in particular) should be proportionate to the length of the casting stroke, which has to be proportionate to the amount of line aerialized. thus, the longer the cast, the longer the forward haul. but the biggest problem i run in to is imprecise timing of the forward haul. and what we are talking about here are fundamentals that should be mastered at much shorter casting distances and with drills. then, as we advance more line outside the guides for longer distances, we are simply slowing the rhythm of the entire cast as we stretch out the casting stroke and increase the speed of the rod tip just a bit.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
As for the back cast mirroring the forward, I can't quite understand that statement. When working with distance casters, I sometimes see they sweep the rod tip to the side a bit during the back cast. This causes a sideways swooping effect to the line. Their forward casts are arrow-straight with no hint of that swoop so the only downside I see in their doing this is a little less connection to the line therefore robbing them of a bit of power on the forward cast.
i should have said that at maximum efficiency the forward cast is a mirror image of the backcast. but it does go beyond that for most casters up through intermediate skill levels. there will be a very strong correlation between their backcast loops and their forward loops just due to the laws of physics and the limits of their skills. a wide loop on the backcast = wide loop on the forward, for example. can't be avoided. a curve (as you spoke of) in their backcast will result in an unintended curve cast. attempts to "recover" a poor backcast will result in dump casts, curve casts, tailing loops, etc. instead, the focus must be on executing proper backcasts. then the forward cast is a mirror image by default.

that's what i was getting at.

but...as you know...the advanced casts like the curve cast, dump cast, aerial mends, etc. are all executed on the forward cast and alter the forward loop only. but this is very advanced fly casting not applicable to a relative beginner asking about his first encounter with tailing loops.

as for the distance casters you mentioned distorting their backcasts, that is a fault...plain and simple. it comes from trying to pick up more line faster than they have properly prepared themselves to execute properly. they then learn to compensate for it. and as you said, they lose a lot of energy transfer in the process: increased wind resistance on a fatter loop than necessary, increased rod recovery that causes increased vibration that requires tighter grip that results in greater fatigue, and the introduction of angle between line and rod that you alluded to. i speak from personal experience on this one. i had to "unlearn" this one myself and still make this mistake sometimes when pushing myself beyond my comfort zone. but because i watch my backcast religiously, i can see it immediately when i do it.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

jackster,

i'd love to see what you've got on adaptive tying. i kept getting distracted while trying to make this reply. so it got all chopped up.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

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Originally Posted by flyguy66 View Post
jackster,

i'd love to see what you've got on adaptive tying. i kept getting distracted while trying to make this reply. so it got all chopped up.
Ken... take a gander here then contact Bamboo10 (Gary Jones)
Carolina Fly Fishing Club :: View topic - Evergreen Hand for Disabled Folks
He's an outstanding and very helpful member of our club and I believe is now on the board to design and improve on the Evergreen Hand.
He has had it at several functions we've had and it really seems to be quite the good idea!
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

that's pretty darned cool.

i wonder if they know that there are research and development grants from the dod and va available for stuff like this?

phwff isn't pursuing any of that sort of stuff. so they aren't really any sort of a resource for that sort of info, let alone a clearing house for contact info or conduit whereby to put these things in motion.

but the small business administration has all of this sort of info through their government contracting division.

if i recall, a small biz can get up to $500k for r&d of a product like this on a 2 yr contract to develop a working prototype. if successful, they can then proceed to a contract phase that goes up to like $3 million and 7 years to develop a marketable/deployable product. at least that's the gist of it and in the ballpark on the numbers.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

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Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
I do not believe a properly executed long haul causes tailing loops.

Randy
A properly executed long haul also doesn't inspire people to start a thread asking about a "problem in my casting" either.

I think its safe to say that an attempted long haul is more likely to produce tailing loops/casting problems, due to the fact that its easier to finish the haul too late.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

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Originally Posted by BigCliff View Post
A properly executed long haul also doesn't inspire people to start a thread asking about a "problem in my casting" either.

I think its safe to say that an attempted long haul is more likely to produce tailing loops/casting problems, due to the fact that its easier to finish the haul too late.
that first sentence read like something i would write.

we all tend to get way off topic pretty quickly when talking casting. happens almost every time. nature of the beast with discussion threads.

bottom line is the most common cause of tailing loops when beginning to learn to double haul/increase casting distance is trying to use too much force. second is simply too much forward acceleration of the rod (speed)...which is very similar, but not necessarily the same. third is a poor casting arc itself. fourth is improper timing of the forward haul. and that's about it.

i'd wager that about 85% of the time it's too much force.

short haul vs. long haul, if the fundamentals of the cast are right you can use either one you prefer. all that a proper haul does is loads the rod deeper, and the haul can occur at any time the rod is loaded. but it is worthless when the rod is not loaded.

and holding the line in the off-hand too long will result in a rubberband effect when the loop unfurls. and that is very obvious. you will feel it in the off-hand. you will feel it in the rod rebound. and you will see it very clearly when the fly and leader shoot back over the fly line.
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

Something that has helped me a few times, is to video tape myself casting when I have a problem. It's easier to figure out where you are going wrong setting in front of the TV with a cup of coffee in your hand than flailing the water in frutration. I just did it myself with my new spey rod. I improved my casting right away.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: A recent problem in my casting

I believe that a lot of anglers get confused over the issue of Form vrs Style. Flyfishers watch an accomplished caster and try their damnest to look like them. The interesting thing is they all cast a bit different with great results and that is because they all have good form. Form is the solid fundimentals of casting, the transfers of potential energy to kenetic and how that is accomplished is form. What you look like while casting is style.
To show someone that the tailing loop is caused in effect by the double haul and to idenify that it is the problem is to remove it from the cast. I have had flyfishers cast longer with the single haul than when they used the double.
Great post Ken!!
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