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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: casting angle

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankB2 View Post
How would stopping a rod load it???
Well, this is really advanced stuff that will probably only confuse the issue in this thread, but...actually...it can and usually does. it's not a good thing. it should be kept to an absolute minimum, but is a tool best left to the most accomplished of casters or the rodmakers. remember this?

"for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

so what else happens when you abruptly stop a fly rod besides the loop forming in the line when the rod straightens? ah-hah! the rod actually over-straightens a bit and then returns to straight through a series of increasingly minute pendulum swings, doesn't it? boing-oing-oing-oing-oing! casting experts and rodmakers refer to this as rod recovery or recovery vibration. rodmakers try to minimize this through improved construction and engineering. and i'm not even going to mention how some really advanced casters try to minimize it. but i'll say this: there's a good reason why you should not grip a fly rod any tighter than you must to keep control of it, and this is a big part of the reason.

so, since "load" = nothing more than "bend," stopping the rod does cause it to both unload and reload (a few times in rapid succession).

the reason it is pertinent at all to understand this is because this recovery action on the stop dissipates some of the energy transfer to the fly line. remember what i said about the more efficiently the unloading of the rod transfers the energy to the line the better off we are? well, there are actually a host of factors that reduce this efficiency, many of which never even cross our minds.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: casting angle

Good posts, Ken. I never really bothered to think about energy transfer until
I had been flyfishing for 25 years ! Once I looked into it, things became
much more clear, and my casting improved.

After posting "How would stopping a rod load it?" yesterday, it occured to me
that a rod in motion would load if stopped abruptly, in the sense that
a bend would form, creating energy that would unload. I was thinking in terms
of a rod without line, and (obviously) without casting. Lots to think about
here.....
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: casting angle

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankB2 View Post
Good posts, Ken. I never really bothered to think about energy transfer until
I had been flyfishing for 25 years ! Once I looked into it, things became
much more clear, and my casting improved.

After posting "How would stopping a rod load it?" yesterday, it occured to me
that a rod in motion would load if stopped abruptly, in the sense that
a bend would form, creating energy that would unload. I was thinking in terms
of a rod without line, and (obviously) without casting. Lots to think about
here.....
you can drive yourself insane with casting mechanics theory. just don't forget about the fishing part. LOL
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: casting angle

Yeah Ken,

You can drive yourself crazy with the mechanics - especially if you go over to sexyloops and read 8 pages of calculus derrivation formulas on the loading curves of this vs that!

A lot of casters refer to the effects of "recovery vibration" as seen in the rod leg of the loop as "rod bounce waves". As you implied, they can be minimized (on most setups) by quickly relaxing the wrist immediately after the stop and sweeping the tip back up closer to the fly leg of the loop as the line is shooting out.

I was casting a 4 wt WF floating line on my 8 wt TCR a couple weeks ago when the wind was down to see how far I could throw it just for grins. Talk about rod bounce - man it felt like I was throwing my bicep off my casting arm, and the bounce waves in the rod leg loop were incredible.

But with a more appropriately weighted line, the bounce is greatly dampened, and the waves formed in the rod leg because of mild bounce don't seem to really affect the distance or accuracy that much.

Besides, the biggest hurdle is in getting new fly fishermen to come to a stop at all! It just doesn't make sense to them that the line will cast further if they stop the rod shorter!!

If I were teaching someone, I would be very careful in my demo's to insure that I wasn't drifting, and I would come to obvious stops earlier than I normally would if fishing.

I've only just started to study the actual mechanics of casting in the last few months myself, and have learned an enormous amount already. For years I have had people I've fished with asking me what they are doing wrong, and I've never been able to properly explain what it was, since I din't really know. I had never had a lesson myself, or even fished with anyone who really cast well.

So you can go crazy with the mechanics, but you can also progress really rapidly by learning what is actually happening during the cast, and what needs to be done to get the fly out there with maximum efficiency and minimun exertion. There is no question that if there had been an internet out there 40 years ago, I'd be a hell of a lot better caster today than I am.

I think the biggest advantage to "Continuous or Belgium or Oval" casts is when throwing heavily leaded flies as is often common in saltwater fishing from a skiff.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: casting angle

Jim,

Underlining a rod is a good way to challenge one's technique. It is a more finely tuned technique that produces the most efficient loops (ie. greater distance), not more effort/force/power. And an underlined rod simply rebels against more force. It's obvious to anyone. But a 4 on an 8 is pretty drastic! LOL

Better timing of pauses and hauls, straighter-line rod tip path, keeping the reel even more properly aligned w/the elbow throughout the casting stroke(something overlooked by a lot of folks unless it is blatant), better line length to stroke length ratio, etc. will all produce better loops and more distance when underlined (which means you can't put as much load into the rod).

CPC has several applications. You mentioned one. But the most common is in Spey casting: the need for long casts in a situation where backcast space is limited. Spey casts are CP ROLL casts. Bigger rivers typically...deeper, swifter currents...where wading out is treacherous or impossible, but the fly fishing is good: steelhead, salmon, stripers mostly. But I've been thinking it could also be used effectively for some of the tropical/semi-tropical saltwater migrations where the fish move from the backcountry estuaries to the open water in large schools on a seasonal basis just like the salmonids and striped bass: tarpon, snook, and so forth...or even cruising sharks off the beaches.
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