Nail knot for tippet?

[wlai]

I had the idea that the nail knot may be neater than the usual double surgeon's knot that I use for leader-tippet, but I can't for the life of me tie one that doesn't slip. I've tried mono-to-mono, and mono-to-flourocarbon and neither worked. My nail knot for backing to fly line never has slippages.

Is this not the right use of a nail knot? Do everyone just use double surgeon for this connection?

Curious,

Will

 

[Guest1]

Why don't you just use a blood knot? They are neat, pretty danged close to a 100% strength knot. Better than either of the knots you mentioned.

 

[fredaevans]

I do it all the time for butt sections to fly lines. 'Error' is trying to tie the thing too close to the end of the fly line and not having enough Mono coming out the back of the knot so you've really got something to hold on too.** Move the knot back at least 1 to 1.5 inches. Clamp down on that knot and get it as tight as you can.

Pull again! Once more!

If the knots 'loose' it will strip off the line coating.

Nip off the extra bit of fly line/mono BUT NOT 100% flush; leave a tiny bit.

From that point forward (this is an over kill answer to a simple question) triple surgeons for everything else.

** If you do get the mono too short just clamp on the thing with forceps.

 

[mikel]

if you're attaching tippet to leader with a nail knot, you need to tie two of them....one against the other.

 

[fredaevans]

if you're attaching tippet to leader with a nail knot, you need to tie two of them....one against the other.

Agree, :worthy:which is why I 'don't go there.' With heavy material this is pretty simple, but as you drop down in 'test' it becomes a pain where one sits.

Fred

 

[turbineblade]

Doing a nail-to-nail splice to attach tippet to leader is a hassle....and I hate nail knots, period, for any purpose . They're kind of like a butt joint in construction. And yes, I've used them and done "okay" for the most part -- but they aren't smooth and they aren't as strong as a whipped loop.

Learn to whip a loop -- I just taught myself to do it last week and I'm amazed at how smooth, convenient, and strong these are. I'll never use any other method now that I can do these.

You can also fold over the end of your fly line and nail knot a loop using 2-3 nail knots -- that works too.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wHGN1sYYKI"]Fly Line Setup with No Knots! - YouTube[/ame]



For tippet to leader I use a triple surgeon's in the field because they're easy and I tie them well enough to trust them.

 

[silver creek]

I had the idea that the nail knot may be neater than the usual double surgeon's knot that I use for leader-tippet, but I can't for the life of me tie one that doesn't slip. I've tried mono-to-mono, and mono-to-flourocarbon and neither worked. My nail knot for backing to fly line never has slippages.

Is this not the right use of a nail knot? Do everyone just use double surgeon for this connection?



Will

No!

A nail knot works because the coating of the fly line is compressible and the knot "bites" into the surface. You will notice that in a nail knot, the fly line is not actually a part of the knot. It is what the knot is tied around. It all mono to mono knots, both sides of the knot must be part of the knot.

 

[turbineblade]

A nail knot works because the coating of the fly line is compressible and the knot "bites" into the surface.

It is for this reason that I don't care for nail knots -- mechanically they're...stupid . A compromise, at best.

At least if you fold the fly line over into a loop and nail knot it, you have a nail knot gripping 2 sections of fly line .

 

[jaybo41]

Why don't you just use a blood knot? They are neat, pretty danged close to a 100% strength knot. Better than either of the knots you mentioned.

I'm with you on this one Dan. I use blood knots when attaching tippet to leader and when tying my leaders. They're very neat and rarely let me down when chasing trout or steelhead unless I've botched tying the knot.

 

[dabluz]

I go back to the original question which is "tippet to leader".

This is a situation where only a good mono to mono knot is used. The one I like the best is the blood knot. You can even leave one end of the blood knot quite long so that you can even tie a second fly to your leader. The uni to uni knot is also just as good.

 

[half fast]

I use either a blood knot or surgeon's knot depending on how fumble-fingered I am at the moment or how poor the lighting is. Surgeon's is easier for me than the blood, but I prefer the blood knot.

If for whatever reason you want to use the nail knot, the suggestion to use two back-to-back knots will work, but if you're doing that you might consider two back-to-back uni knots instead. Easier to tie than a nail knot, and you don't need a nail (or whatever).

 

[wlai]

I see, the blood knot recommendation makes the most sense to me. The loop video is great but I don't see me doing it for tippets.

Another knot to learn I guess!

 

[tpo]

Everyone has their own preferred knot/method. Here's mine:

1) I make my own leaders at home. For these, I use double nail knots for the butt sections, and blood knots for the smaller parts of the leader (about 0X/1X and smaller). I use a blood knot tool, I'm not very good at tying them by hand. Blood knots are great, but they don't work well for larger diameter lines.

2) When I'm on the water, I replace tippet using a triple Surgeon's knot. Its strong and relatively easy to tie by hand.

Tom

 

[pbr]

Tie-fast is the tool you need!

Nail Knot Tyer Tool / Tie-Fast Knot-Tying Tool -- Orvis

This is your answer!

Sorry I don't post much but I am a lurker!

The Tie-fast is a simple tool that allows you to tie a very quick nail knot.

pros
very fast
strong
easy
straight
did I say strong

i have gear fished all my life until i switched to fly fishing (7 years fly fishing) and the 3rd day on my local river (7years ago) and a random guy introduced me to this simple tool and I have not stopped using yet!

I have landed 20"+ browns 7X on drys and nymphs in the US on public water in short order with these knots!

I don't know any other way of telling everyone to try this tool

I used this tool to tie all of my knots today(TODAY) and landed 30 or so trout, largest was 17" on 7X and I didn't break any off in my opinion to the knot!
No promotion.... Just a great knot.

PBR

All knots are good to know! The non Slip mono loop is the only other knot I use!

Stick em all!!!

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

ooo yeah you have to nail knot both the leader around the tippet and the tippet around the leader! Two nail knots... one for each line you are connecting.

PBR

 

[Guest1]

Blood knots are great, but they don't work well for larger diameter lines.

2) When I'm on the water, I replace tippet using a triple Surgeon's knot. Its strong and relatively easy to tie by hand.

Tom

Just how big are you talking? I have 50 lb Ande I do it with all the time.

Triple Surgeons knot is not nearly as strong as a blood knot. Just so you know and compensate with your drag appropriately.

I think Blood Knots intimidate a lot of people. They shouldn't. If you look at the Orvis version of animated knot you can see clearly how easy it is. They have the tag ends going through the crossed hole so both ends would point the same way. That is an error. I only show this version because it shows the knot being done more clearly. http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/index.html

The next animated Blood Knot shows the ends the right way, but is harder to tell what they are doing. Between the two you should be able to do a Blood Knot without causing a headache. http://www.animatedknots.com/bloodknot/index.php?Categ=fishing&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

 

[random user]

Blood knots are definitely the way to go.

They really aren't that hard to tie. It just takes practice. Just lubricate them before you pull them tight.

Any time I have 4X or less, I use a 6 wrap blood not, not the usual 4 wrap. Anything above .017 only gets 3 wraps.

Way I was taught: Started with the butt ends of 2 leaders (+.020). Once I could tie those well with distractions, A foot or so was clipped of the butt ends of the old, spent leaders and the process started again. Took less than an hour to get down to 6x to 6x.

It is most definitely a "muscle memory" thing.

 

[peterjay]

I had the idea that the nail knot may be neater than the usual double surgeon's knot that I use for leader-tippet, but I can't for the life of me tie one that doesn't slip. I've tried mono-to-mono, and mono-to-flourocarbon and neither worked. My nail knot for backing to fly line never has slippages.

Is this not the right use of a nail knot? Do everyone just use double surgeon for this connection?

Curious,

Will

Will, you didn't mention what kind of fishing you do, but for my own purposes, I wouldn't trust a nail knot for much of anything - for the reasons Silver Creek mentioned. If you're fishing trout, etc., a blood knot or a surgeon's knot will do fine. IMO, if you're fishing salt water or heavy fresh water, nail knots are best forgotten entirely. Also, you're gonna need to be changing tippets frequently, regardless of what kind of fishing you do, and the last thing you want is to be tying nail knots in the field. The only time you need concern yourself with neatness is if there's a lot of algae, etc., in the water that's catching on your knots. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

 

[fichy]

I must admit to using nail knots on all my line to leader butt connections. Loops fail just as often and the turnover is a little better with the direct in-line connection. I do a lot of sightfishing, so it helps with accuracy in my silly opinion.
With a drop of knot-sense or similar- I use Aquaseal- they come through the tip very smoothly. I've never caught a fly caught fish over 50 lbs, so this may be why it works for me. I've never thought of using a nail knot for any other connection, knowing they have to bite in to work. There is one field application for a nail knot that I know and use. It's a nailess nail knot
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-wiXw9jto4]Nailless Nail Knot | Speedy Nail Knot | Speed Nail Knot - YouTube[/ame]
Gary Borger has another great little twist on this knot. It's saved me as recently as last week when a very large carp I sightfished took me around a underwater tree and I lost the tip of my flyline. I always carry some leader butt with me, so a few minutes later I was back to fishing. Over the past 10 years or so that I've known it, I may have saved a day with this knot a dozen times. Well worth learning. Oh yeah- I'm another fan of blood knots for leader and tippet, except in temps getting down into single digits, then I use the forceps knot- a very quick and easy variation on a triple surgeon's.
It's easy to do with fingerless gloves on.


Charlie

 

[turbineblade]

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I agree with fichy on the "knowing how to tie the nail knot, or (even better) how to "uni knot" the leader butt to the fly line (which is called the "nailless nail knot" for whatever reason, even though I've never used a nail for any knots, ever ).

I have had issues on the water that required me to "retie" a rig totally, and knowing the uni-knot method to attach a "nail knot" to the fly line got my rod back up and fishing in just a few minutes. If you rely on the shop to do all of this stuff for you, you might be in trouble on the water if problems arise!

That said, they're all inferior to a whipped loop (tied at home; sealed with aquaseal for smoothness) which doesn't rely on a stupid knot "biting" into the fly line coating to hold your rig together. It sounds almost as stupid as it really is --

 

[mikel]

I must admit to using nail knots on all my line to leader butt connections. Loops fail just as often and the turnover is a little better with the direct in-line connection. I do a lot of sightfishing, so it helps with accuracy in my silly opinion.
With a drop of knot-sense or similar- I use Aquaseal- they come through the tip very smoothly. I've never caught a fly caught fish over 50 lbs, so this may be why it works for me. I've never thought of using a nail knot for any other connection, knowing they have to bite in to work. There is one field application for a nail knot that I know and use. It's a nailess nail knot

well...I like having a mono butt section with perfection loop, myself...regularly cut the loops off new lines to add one. To each his own...

Thanks for posting the nailess knot. That will save the day for me or a buddy on the water some day.