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Old 03-26-2011, 09:44 PM
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Default First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Just got my TFO 5864 (5wt 8'6 4pc). Funny thing is I wasn't sure what end was what on my WF-5-F GPX line. I finally figured the thinner end is the end that gets attached to the backing.

When spooling the backing, since I didn't have any help I spooled it from the floor and now after all said and done, I'm really worried that the braided backing is twisted on. I'm stupid for not knowing - I don't know where my head was as I've done this a billion times with monofilament for spinning rigs. Forgoing a stop to a 200yd high bridge to unwind it, I'll just let it be.

This fly line also had loops on each end (double loops?). I read about the arbor knot and the spider knot but I prefer a tight, low-profile knot that won't catch or cause issues so I cut the loop and rigged it with a nail knot. It turned out to be a mighty fine looking nail knot indeed.

So now comes the looped fly line to the looped leader part. The (quite knowledgeable) guy at the store recommended a simple loop-to-loop where you feed the leader through (he called it a figure-eight knot). He said it facilitates changing leaders.

Going on my previous admission to liking a lower-profile, do you who like tying knots opt for rail knots for fly line to leader as well? I doubt I will be changing the fly line to backing often as it's a 5wt. I bought a 3X leader and I imagine I will be changing it to lighter/heavier depending on the fly. What are your thoughts?
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Hi Chris,

Regarding the front loop, what are you fishing for species & size wise?

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Old 03-26-2011, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

First lets tackle the line/wrong end or not problem. The end the fly goes on goes from skinny to fat pretty quick. In a matter of a few yards. The skinny end that attaches to the backing stays skinny for all but the last 30' (The shooting head) of it. So first pull line off the reel and if it does not get fat really soon, it's on backwards. Second problem, if the backing is on and twisted, this is not a real major problem. First, did you spool it with the spool laying flat on the floor like spooling a spinning reel? If it was from the spool and on a pencil, it's probabbly not twisted, if you did it flat, it's twisted. The best way to get the twists out is in a boat. Strip all of the backing out into the water while going at trolling speed. Don't have anything attached to the end. Once it's all out, just reel it back in and the twists will be gone. You can do the same thing at the park in the grass, but the line gets a tad dirty. Just make sure it is out in a straight line when you start reeling it in.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Thanks for your replies guys.

Since this is my 5wt and not my 9wt, I will be going for anything small in the trout species - maybe the occasional (small) bass if I don't have my 9wt handy.

Yes, the line was spooled with the spool lying flat on the ground. I don't have or have access to a boat (hence my bridge suggestion earlier). I will see if I can lay these 200+ yds out in Central Park without someone stepping on it or a dog playing with it.

The line attached to the leader is FAT right from the loop. I figured since it's WF that the weight would in fact be just that, forward! I also noticed marking on the leader end that says in this order from backing side to leader side:

J48 <- R SA MS GPX WF 5 F T ->

The R arrow points to the spool while the F arrow points to the leader.

Hope I got this right.

Now reiterating my original question: for the knot to the leader - for delicate presentations and my subconscious need for a clean, low-profile knot - should I be going with a rail knot or will I be changing it up enough between 0X and 6X for dry flies, heavier flies, etc.. to warrant I loop to loop her?

Thanks!
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Let me begin by saying that I almost exclusively use the loop-to-loop connections for my leaders. In fact, I only went with the nail knot connection on my 3 wt, as I don't get a lot of opportunity to use it and I'm never going to try tossing heavy anything with it. In almost two years I've only changed the leader once, when it finally got too short.

When I fish from some kind of watercraft I usually bring more than one rod (one for subsurface, one for dries, and sometimes one for heavy wind resistant flies), so I sometimes don't change leaders all day long.

However, when hiking and fishing streams, I usually bring just one rod, and might change leaders a few times during the day. In this type of situation, the L2L connection really shines, IMO. I can change leaders in just a few seconds, whereas tying a new nail knot takes me a couple minutes at least. Personally, I'm in this for the fishing, not tying knots, so anything that increases the time I've got a fly in/on the water is positive.

I don't find the connection to be significantly 'higher' profile than a nail knot, I haven't had the 'hinging' problem that some people speak of, and after several hundred fish I can say the connection is very strong and it will go through the guides without much hangup.

If you're looking for advice, I'd say use the L2L as there will probably be enough opportunity to change leaders on a given day of stream fishing to make it worthwhile.
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

I use loop to loop (fly line to leader) on every rod/reel/line combination I own, for everything from atlantic salmon to bluegills. Never had one single problem of any sort with that setup. And I fish a lot.
Gary
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskirk View Post
Yes, the line was spooled with the spool lying flat on the ground. I don't have or have access to a boat (hence my bridge suggestion earlier). I will see if I can lay these 200+ yds out in Central Park without someone stepping on it or a dog playing with it.
Yup, laying the spool flat will twist it like a tornado. Next time put it on a pencil and run it on with the spool turning. Flat only works on spinning reels and then with only one side up. The other will twist it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskirk View Post
The line attached to the leader is FAT right from the loop. I figured since it's WF that the weight would in fact be just that, forward! I also noticed marking on the leader end that says in this order from backing side to leader side:

J48 <- R SA MS GPX WF 5 F T ->

The R arrow points to the spool while the F arrow points to the leader.
I'm not familiar with that marking. Take a comparison for line size between about 10' in and around 50' in. If they are the same diameter you have the line on backawards.

If you are going to do this at the park, try having someone run out to the end, holding it up off the ground. As soon as they drop it, reel like a spider monkey hopped up on Mountain Dew. Hopefully you keep it out of the way of the dogs and kids.
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskirk View Post
...Now reiterating my original question: for the knot to the leader - for delicate presentations and my subconscious need for a clean, low-profile knot - should I be going with a rail knot or will I be changing it up enough between 0X and 6X for dry flies, heavier flies, etc.. to warrant I loop to loop her?

Thanks!
Use the front loop! Don't just nail knot your leader to your line. The other option would be to nail knot a pigtail of 30lb mono, tie a loop in the end and do a loop to loop there. you'll end up doing that once the loop gets old and the coating cracks. For now, I would use the factory loop on a 5wt.

As for low-clean profile, this knot rarely comes into the guides, and the act of cast causes this knot to elongate and become low-profile. In my experience, it runs through the guides as well or better than a nail knot.

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskirk View Post
...When spooling the backing, since I didn't have any help I spooled it from the floor and now after all said and done, I'm really worried that the braided backing is twisted on. I'm stupid for not knowing - I don't know where my head was as I've done this a billion times with monofilament for spinning rigs. Forgoing a stop to a 200yd high bridge to unwind it, I'll just let it be...
Braided dacron isn't like monofilament, it doesn't really have memory. I've never had an issue with twist in my backing.


P.S.: If I had a dime for every time I had a fish take me into my backing on a 5wt, I would be flat broke.
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Hi Chris,

You may never get into your backing with a 5wt and the twist in the backing will never be a problem. It also has some to do with the type of braided backing you used. Most braided line is so flexible that you may never notice the many twist you put into the line. Behind a boat is the best method to remove the backing twist but you can also use a fast currant and a long strait section in a river. The straight has to be long enough to get all of your line out. The river thing will only work with a floating line.

I fasten all leader butts to my fly line using a loop to loop connection. You can see here the proper way to fasten two loops together.

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Old 03-29-2011, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: First rod and just spooled - twisted line? Wrong knot?

Since you have a loop in the end of the fly line the best thing to do is a poop to loop connection to your leader. This is a video showing the knot I use. To attach it to your fly line, put the loop in the fly line throuh the perfection loop. Then take the fly end of the leader and put it through the loop in the fly line and pull it out till the two loops are connected.

Last edited by Guest1; 03-29-2011 at 09:04 PM. Reason: hideous spelling
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