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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

I was able to pick up a new spool of Rio Grand for $39 yesterday as the box was damaged and who cares about the box. 40 bones doesn't hurts too bad and shipping was free. I was able to get a 15% discount on Rio Gold since I bought a spare spool for my reel recently, in fact the local fly shop did 15% off that as well.

I would agree on matching the line to the rod. My ZXL casts perfect with Rio Gold and feels overloaded with Grand but I like the Grand on my Sage One as I'm able to feel the faster rod load much easier. Verdict is still out on my Scott A4 4 wt, using Gold on that reel and am wondering if it's a bit too light, maybe something in the middle like Mainstream or 444?

I would really be frustrated with line that doesn't float. Nothing more irritating than seeing the first 5 feet of your line 3 inches below the surface. I want the tip my my floating line to ride like a cork.
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imxer View Post
Still asking. What does it cost to make a tapered fly line?
I can't answer that but I would imagine the machinery to manufacture tapered lines ain't cheap. This does not even take into account the engineering that takes place in the background and the marketing and mark up and...
I read somewhere that this is the reason the Chinese haven't cloned and copied fly lines as of yet, it would cost too much to tool up for the volume they would sell.
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

A modern PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) fly line is, at its simplest, an extruded mix of PVC, plasticizers, dyes, and micro-balloons over a hollow-braided Nylon core. The core is a constant diameter - the thickness of the extruded material varies the taper. Many fly lines are made on one length of core material and then cut apart for packaging.

Simple.

The early plastic lines used a solid braided Nylon core that was tapered, and the plastic was a single thickness. This was a holdover from tapered oil-finished lines, both silk and Nylon.

The reason that PVC floating lines often have a problem with the tip sinking is two-fold - first, if the tip is made fine enough for good presentation, it doesn't have enough volume to offset its mass (the apparent specific gravity exceeds 1.0, the specific gravity of water); second, the hollow core may become saturated with water through capillary action.

Dressing the tip with a hydrophobic coating (red tin Mucilin) may help the tip to float. Also, plugging the end of the core with Zap-A-Gap couldn't hurt.

P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.
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Last edited by overmywaders; 09-02-2012 at 08:46 PM. Reason: a P.S.
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overmywaders View Post
P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.
Sure advertising is a big part of the business. Just ask Cortland what the lack of advertising did to their business lately.
Still, there's more to the price of lines than just the material, direct labor costs and advertising costs. You're a business owner if I'm not mistaken. Do you not factor inventory, equipment costs and indirect labor costs into your products?
I'll be the first to say that asking $100.00 for a floating fly line is pushing the envelope but I will pay a decent price to get the performance enhancements that I know from experience I can detect and use to advantage when casting and fishing.
Some folks don't seem to think the fly line is a very important part of a fly fishing rig. I feel it is one of the most important components if you want a good to great fly fishing system.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
I will pay a decent price to get the performance enhancements... and use to advantage when casting and fishing.
Some folks don't seem to think the fly line is a very important part of a fly fishing rig. I feel it is one of the most important components if you want a good to great fly fishing system.
I tend to agree. If you are an experienced fly fisher, using a quality and condition specific rod and reel outfit, and you are at all concerned about accuracy and fly presentation in sensitive shallower waters, then how could you not give the fly line it fair due. Finding a good fly line that woks with your fishing conditions, rod and reel is prolly more important than buying a great gimmicky fly line that doesn't.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overmywaders View Post
A modern PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) fly line is, at its simplest, an extruded mix of PVC, plasticizers, dyes, and micro-balloons over a hollow-braided Nylon core. The core is a constant diameter - the thickness of the extruded material varies the taper. Many fly lines are made on one length of core material and then cut apart for packaging.

Simple.

The early plastic lines used a solid braided Nylon core that was tapered, and the plastic was a single thickness. This was a holdover from tapered oil-finished lines, both silk and Nylon.

The reason that PVC floating lines often have a problem with the tip sinking is two-fold - first, if the tip is made fine enough for good presentation, it doesn't have enough volume to offset its mass (the apparent specific gravity exceeds 1.0, the specific gravity of water); second, the hollow core may become saturated with water through capillary action.

Dressing the tip with a hydrophobic coating (red tin Mucilin) may help the tip to float. Also, plugging the end of the core with Zap-A-Gap couldn't hurt.

P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.
Again, I'm a BIG fan of SS. I've had the "peach" lines, didn't last but a couple years. Tried the Wulff TT, Orvis ( which was the best sink tip floating line I ever had), has Cortland Sylk, which I sold a month later. Actually worse than the Orvis Floating by a long shot. Then went to Rio-Trout, Gold, Windcutter. I wasn't happy with the way any floated. You shouldn't have to dress, Zap-A-Gap or do anything to a floating line except clean it. I did have an SA GPX which was a 3 wt. line (DT if I remember). Sharkskin came along and all the hype and $99 price tag. After being available for a year, I asked a friend that does a lot of fishing (U.S. FF'ing team since the beginning among other things) about SS since I knew he used it even before it hit the market. He told me he usually goes through a line every 6 months. The SS he had (5wt.) was still a prototype and 3 years old. What sold me was he said it performs just as good at 3 years old as when he originally got it.
I think my original 5wt. is going on 5 years now. Still floats like no other line I've had, shoots much further than any other line and has no cracks, no need to grease or plug the tip. I have it in 3,4,5,6 wt. I still have the other lines, but don't use them a lot ( windcutter 6 wt., Rio Gold 5 wt.,and Trout LT in 4).
I haven't tried GPX Textured yet, but it's supposed to be the same as SS.
These are my findings from actual use, and I've never had my fingers cut up from SS, the sound doesn't bother me and lasting as long as they have so far, they're more cost effective.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Jackster,

True, there are many other costs associated with the line; for brevity's sake I cut it short. However, to illustrate the cost to manufacture fly lines, Cortland is able to sell their "Fairplay" fly lines to Walmart for such a low price that Walmart can then profitably market the lines for $12.96. Assuming an average Walmart retail markup for this type of goods of 33%, Cortland would be profitably selling the lines for $8.64. Assuming Cortland also makes 33% over cost-to-manufacture, the cost-to-manufacture would be $5.76. ("Fairplay" lines are three feet shorter than the "Cortland 333+", but the same basic materials and manufacturing methods go into both.)

But, as I said earlier,
Quote:
IMO, whatever line feels best on the rod with the way you cast to the average distance you need... is the line you should buy, regardless of price.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Thanks Guys

Appreciate the various replies about cost of lines. Am in agreement with most, if not all.
This truly is an excellent FORUM.

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Last edited by imxer; 09-05-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

There are a few components in the costs of manufacturing fly lines that I believe many here aren't considering.

1) A ton of testing, no matter how well it works on the computer, Fly lines require a lot of testing in a lot of conditions. This in-tales making hundreds of lines that no margin is recouped on.

2) Promotional costs, you can't sell fly lines unless you get free lines in the hands of industry personal, fly shop owners, guides, and shop buyers have to try them too. This is the only way you can generate any industry "buzz". Advertising itself is expensive, a few adds in the Drake can eat into a margin real quick.

3) Packaging, At Cortland we use a package that can be used as a line winder, it's made from recycled materials and is biodegradable. This isn't cheap, in some cases it costs more than the raw materials (not labor) of the line production itself.

4) Production: Loops have to be done by hand, in most cases the cutting the lines and spooling is manual labor.

The raw material itself is pretty cheap, but everything else isn't.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

Another interesting Thread,I've also used most of the Lines,with the exception of three mentioned,plus others not mentioned.
With Reels & especially one Brand of Gear which is Good Stuff,as mentioned some is way overpriced,after all why should The average guy who uses these products have to pay for all The Promotion Freebies etc,because if we The Buyers don't like a product it doesn't sell regardless of whose tested it,also huge mark ups greatly increase all item prices.
Like many others I have Many Many loaded Reels with Lines of all sizes etc, plus many new unused Lines,some of which I have bought at the right price,even though I will never wear them all out.
I constantly check eBay & constantly see Lines from $15 to $100+,however I haven't bought a Line for 6-9 Months & by my Standards,am I overdue???
Perhaps??? as I always Shop around for The Best Buy.

Brian.
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