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Old 08-08-2013, 07:45 AM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

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Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
I have yet to find a fluorocarbon line that has the same strength to diameter as tippet material. When you compare the same diameter of fluorocarbon line with fluorocarbon tippet, the tippet material is stronger. That means you can use a thinner tippet of the same strength and get a more supple tippet that will give a more natural drift.

The popular line to use as tippet material is Pline so check out the diameter vs strength below

The 6 lb test Pline is 3X:

Click the image to open in full size.

Now compare with the commonly sold fluorocarbon 3X tippets:

Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


So you can use Pline at 6 lb or Orvis at 9.2 lbs for the same 3X diameter.

There is no free lunch.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -- great read.

The problem I see with this line of reasoning (above) is that you're accepting that the printed breaking strength on the tippet spool is accurate. If you test a lot of this stuff for yourself using any of your favorite knots, you'll realize that some of the types grossly exaggerate breaking strength and others are just plain liars.

Going back to the "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" -- thin lines break easier, period. I would suggest that people decide what leader/tippet to use based almost entirely on type of material and diameter, not printed break strength. Suppleness is a personal preference for the person to decide based on what they're targeting and what they're dragging their line through.

For me, this negates any possible benefit to the angler for paying $15 for 3 NFL first-downs worth of line that works no better than any of the other "non-fly fishing" lines.

I use nothing but Maxima green 4 pound (0.007") mono for trout and smaller warm water stuff -- just a personal preference...use what you like. I sometimes use fluoro for heavier stuff but the line is so strong I have a hard time breaking it off when I hang on the bottom....which is annoying -- sometimes I like the line to be a little easier to break. So I mostly use mono for larger stuff.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

As I see it mono will absorb water and become less strong. For that reason alone, fluorocarbon has already won. I don't want to set my clock to beep every 3 hours to remind me of changing leader and tippet. In the end it will probably be more expensive to buy mono than fluorocarbon.

Kim.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

Kim: I've never heard of anyone having to change out monofilament leaders due to water absorption. That sounds.....bonkers.

If you're doing that, you might as well throwing away your leader every 2-3 hours due to UV damage and/or " atmospheric nitrogen poisoning".

Use what you like though -- there's nothing wrong with fluoro and people have no problems catching fish on either. I wouldn't count on saving money by using it though -- and certainly don't count on it being more environmental (not that I really lose sleep over this -- I use it too sometimes).
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

My major reason for using fluoro tippet is that it doesn't become brittle with age like nylon does. This wasn't a problem for me when Orvis used to put an expiration date on their nylon tippet. I could tell from the expiry date when my nylon tippet was ready to become old and brittle, so that I could replace it before it did so. This also prevented me from buying old tippet from a fly shop, where it might have sat on the shelf for a couple of years.

However, a year or so ago, Orvis stopped providing "use by" information on their tippet spools. I presume that this was done to help fly shops who did have older tippet material that they wanted to sell. Now that I can no longer know the age of nylon tippet, I have resorted to buying fluorocarbon tippet so that I don't have to be concerned about its age.
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Last edited by throssing; 09-02-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:13 PM
 
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -- great read.

The problem I see with this line of reasoning (above) is that you're accepting that the printed breaking strength on the tippet spool is accurate. If you test a lot of this stuff for yourself using any of your favorite knots, you'll realize that some of the types grossly exaggerate breaking strength and others are just plain liars.

Going back to the "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" -- thin lines break easier, period. I would suggest that people decide what leader/tippet to use based almost entirely on type of material and diameter, not printed break strength.
Here's a chart from 2012 Fly Fisherman Magazine Tippet Shootout.

"John Bailey…. provided us with his impressive Chatillon TCD-200 testing machine, which easily costs more than my drift boat. Equipped with a digital force gauge, it accurately records peak breaking strength to the hundredths decimal place, in pounds. It also provides a measure of stretch, before breakage, to the thousandth of an inch.

The results show that there is some variation from the advertised breaking strength but conspiracy to overate the actual breaking strength of tippet material.

Column 4 is the advertised tippet strength and Column 5 is the actual tested tippet strength. I see no

Of the 48 tippets tested, 28 tested stronger and 20 tested weaker than advertised.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the nylon monofilament test. Of the 42 tippets tested, 18 tested stronger and 24 tested weaker than advertised.

Click the image to open in full size.

I don't find a conspiracy to exaggerate or lie among the manufacturers.

Since you are a fan of Robert A. Heinlein, you might be interested that I was his physician while I was at the Stanford University Medical Center.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

Silver thanks for the list I'll also have to look around for the P-Line Fluoro as The brands I'm using are thicker.
You are correct in saying it's up to The Person as I've gone over to Fluoro for Lake Fishing which is mainly in The evenings/night time where line diameter isn't critical however I still have heaps of Mono Tapered leaders as well as a few Fluoro I like to use in The Day time also I found Frog Hair Tipit Material to be about the thinnest.
Brian.
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

Holy ****! Really? What was he like? He's one of those guys who I enjoy reading (I've read Stranger and Troopers and several short stories), but I'm never sure I'd have wanted to meet in person.....kind of like Bjork or something. It's a fear of meeting them and it changing your perception . I love Ursula K. LeGuinn even more to be honest, and she's still around! Oh, life's regrets.

And no, I don't think there's a conspiracy to lie about tippet break strength -- just a general policy of BS to sell things like anything else in the world.

I did see the above testing at some point -- I've also seen the bey "knot wars" testing and several members on here and across the web disagree very thoroughly with some of the results. Kuddos for posting it though -- something is better than nothing and we obviously only amount to "random dude on the internet". My personal take is that tippet material is expensive for what you get and that regular stuff works fine. I'd wager that most people's bigger problem would be poor knot tying and poor presentation over poor leader/tippet selection, but I understand your position of "eliminating every possible factor" in your decision given that those 2 problems are not a concern.

Then again, maybe I'm just a cheap bass-turd.

BTW - I was 7 years old when Heinlein passed away -- not to date myself too badly, but sometimes I feel like I should have been born a long time ago. I hate the modern world and am generally grumpy.
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:25 PM
 
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

I guess I can talk about how I met Heinlein since he has passed away.

He was transferred to SUMC from an outside hospital where he had been for several weeks with an undiagnosed illness. When he arrived he was critical with a FUO (Fever of Unknown Origin). The local MDs had not been able to diagnosis the cause, and he was transferred to SUH from his hospital in Santa Cruz, CA. Truth be told, they held him way too long but I guess it is hard to tell a famous person they didn't know what was going on.

If we had CT at that time, his diagnosis would have been easy. Our tests showed he had an infection but we didn't know where it was. So he he had exploratory surgery where an abdominal abscess was found and drained. Since I took care of his surgical wounds, and saw him several times each day, we became close.

I had never read any of his books until I met him. He gave me a few of his paperbacks and then autographed them, and as I read them, I started to enjoy them and he eventually gave me every one of his novels. I even have a copy of Stranger in a Strange Land in Japanese, autographed to me in Japanese.

I think he was in the hospital close to 2 months, and I came to see him even after I left that particular surgical rotation. Heinlein was a joy to talk to. He was very smart and a great conversationalist. We would just talk about whatever came up.

As you know he graduated from the US Naval Academy, and his brother was in the army and rose to the rank of general.

I think I fit his idea of self made person.

Heinlein's illness is alluded to in his Wikipedia bio:

"The decade began with a life-threatening attack of peritonitis, recovery from which required more than two years."

Robert A. Heinlein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: Fluorocarbon tippet - different than fluorocarbn line?

Thanks Silver -- I enjoyed reading you story. I'm inclined to read more of his work now! And hang onto those books! Those are real gems, which means that most of the idiots out there these days would be rushing to sell them on "pawn stars" or something. .
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