The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > Tackle Talk > Fly Rod Building

Fly Rod Building Discussions on building fly rods...

Like Tree13Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-29-2012, 01:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Timbukto
Posts: 488
FlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enoughFlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enough
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Three more wraps, but extra layers of graphite on each ferrule also not to mention the larger diameters of the blank necessary to accomodate the male section! One of the big selling points seems to be the lighter weight and smaller diameters and the favorable effects these have on rod performance, so going from a 2-piece to a 4-piece seems counterproductive to me.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:21 AM
fredaevans's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: White City (tad north of Medford) Oar-E-Gone
Posts: 6,109
fredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by fyshstykr View Post
There is still a few around.
Batson Enterprises - Fly Blanks


And Gary Loomis is making 2 piece rods at his new company named North Fork Composites.

For some reason I cannot find his site but here is a video link Gary discussing blank manufacturing.
-North Fork Composites Custom Rod Blanks Video (Gary Loomis)- Oregon Steelhead Salmon and Trout Fishing
Here you go (for North Fork Composites): North Fork Composites | Designed by Gary Loomis - Today. Yesterday. Tomorrow.
__________________
"“Reputation is what the world thinks a man is; character is what he really is.”
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2012, 10:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Timbukto
Posts: 488
FlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enoughFlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enough
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

I ended up getting a couple of G Loomis GLX Classic 2-piece rods from a seller on Ebay. $466 shipped for a 9', 6wt and a 9', 8wt shipped! They are like new and I'm going to yard test them tomorrow!
Since everyone wants a 4-piece now, the used two-piece rods are going cheap on Ebay!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Guest1's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lake of the Woods/Rainy River Minnesota Canada border
Posts: 4,752
Guest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond reputeGuest1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFlinger2421 View Post
Well, I looked at 4 piece rods by a number of manufacturers today and every one had thead wraps on each of the female ferrules! This indicates to me that the female ferrules are a weak spot. Each ferrule also adds weight which detracts from the action, decreases the dampening of the rod and negates the weight savings resulting from the use of brittle, high modulus graphite. I see a number of negatives and only one advantage: the case is easier to pack! As for that, I like to put mine in a lightweight PVC tube and use it as a hiking staff. It comes in handy when hopping from rock to rock crossing small streams
Am I wrong?
They are not weaker, there is no disadvantage. I build rods and own a ton of 4 pc. rods. My two hand rods which take far more stress than any little rod you are going to use and make them look like toys are all 3 and 4 pc. So wrong wrong wrong, and then....wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFlinger2421 View Post
Doesn't anyone make 2-piece blanks anymore? Sage doesn't, Loomis doesn't, St. Croix doesn't.........
I guess I will just have to live with the rods I have!
I have not checked the other makers yet but St. Croix does make 2 pc. blanks. So again, wrong.

Back to ignore mode, which I only broke to stop bad info from spreading.

Last edited by Guest1; 08-12-2012 at 02:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2012, 10:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Timbukto
Posts: 488
FlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enoughFlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enough
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Dan, with all due respect, if you are going to dis what someone says, please address the points made.
Again, if the ferrule is not a weak point, why do the manufacturers wrap the female ferrules?
I just measured the diameter of my GLX at the tip of the male ferrule. It is 0.206". The female ferrule diameter (just above the thread wrap) is 0.275. Would you agree that the female ferrule is larger diameter, Dan? Would you also agree that a larger diameter tube is more rigid than a smaller diameter tube and that a larger diameter tube needs to have a thinner wall to be as flexible as the smaller diameter tube, assuming the same material is used?
Finally, I determined how far up the tip from the end of the female ferrule I had to go to get back to the same diameter as the tip of the male ferrule: the distance was 13". So, for a distance of at least 13" the rod diameter is greater than it would have been had there not been a ferrule. Now, the only way a blank maker can create the proper action in this rod, it seems to me, is to make that 13" section of the tip thinner or change to a lower modulus, heavier material. Is this statement wrong, wrong, wrong, Dan?
That still leaves us with the ferrule itself, which, I think you will agree, Dan, is definitely thicker walled as well as a much larger diameter. This alone adds weight.
Does all this make any real difference? Perhaps not, but for me, assembling all those pieces and aligning them properly just takes more time and I can't see where 3 ferrules can possibly IMPROVE the action of a fly rod! Of course I do most of my travelling in an SUV so a 5 foot rod case isn't a problem. On my Alaska trips I simply ship the rods to my destination ahead of time. This summer I shipped 5 rods, insured, for less than $25.

As for the Name Brand rods being all 4 piece, you are correct. I was referring to their "top end" rods. They do still make 2-piece rods for the entry level angler and these are likely better than my older "top end" 2 piece rods from the days of yore when the RPL reigned supreme!

P.S. Checking all of my posts to make sure I don't "spread bad information" is not really ignoring me, Dan.
Am I wrong?
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2012, 11:08 PM
williamhj's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 2,777
williamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

If you want 2 piece rods, go for it. I know some people do prefer them. Some companies offer them, and if enough folks want 2 piece over 4 piece then more companies will make more of them. Lack of options in 2 piece rods just speaks to the market. I don't think I'll buy a 2 piece again. My understanding is that in the past ferrules created problematic flat spots but the technology has improved and helped correct this problem. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can speak to it.

The slight weight difference is of zero concern to me, I don't worry about a weak spot as the ferrules are wrapped for strength (I believe some blank manufacturers say you don't need to wrap theirs anyways), and I really value the space saving on my garage storage shelf and in the back of my car. I can fit the rods, but like having the tubes take up less space. I find the longer tube of my bamboo rod annoying personally, but love the rod. I never found putting the rod together to be any kind of trouble when I get to the river.

In short, 4 piece rods might be problematic for you, but they aren't for me.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:25 AM
fredaevans's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: White City (tad north of Medford) Oar-E-Gone
Posts: 6,109
fredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Only been half paying attention to this thread but the last few postings caught my attention. Went out to the garage to check (eye-ball) most of a lives collection of rods. Stock, custom, etc. In each and every case the female bit was thread wrapped.

Always thought this was for 'esthetics' but as it was universal it would appear not.
__________________
"“Reputation is what the world thinks a man is; character is what he really is.”
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:48 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 23
aglohm4 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

Ferrules are certainly a weak spot, but the amount of thread and epoxy is negligible insofar as weight is concerned.

As far as flex and taper design, perhaps early versions of 4 piece rods were insufficient, but modern rods (if made be a reputable manufacturer) always ALWAYS compensate for this, and I don't think you or I or any human will feel a difference in a blind test.

Here's the catch for me: 3 connection points vs. 1 mean 2 more opportunities for something to go wrong. Maybe that third ferrule was wrapped too tightly. Maybe one of the 3 connections came a little loose during travel to your next river access and you didn't notice - that nice tree you just hooked turned your 4 piece into a 5 piece. Or maybe that blasted tip piece is misaligned and you just can't reach it to turn it straight without setting your rod down....

I still own all 4 pieces though... It's amazing how small that 4 piece 7'6" packs.

Tight lines and tight ferrules.

-Austin
__________________
-Austin
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 09:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Timbukto
Posts: 488
FlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enoughFlyFlinger2421 will become famous soon enough
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

I couldn't agree more. If you need convenience, can't tell the difference in action or fishability between a 4 piece and a 2 piece rod, and are not concerned about potential ferrule problems, buy the 4 piece. I am just pointing out the types of problems that ferrules create and that more ferrules do nothing to improve the rod's action or fishability.

Here is the answer to a FAQ concerning ferrule wraps on Rodbuilding.org:

"Yes, you should make what is known as a "ferrule reinforcement wrap" on all ferrules, both the tip-over-butt style and the
spigot/plug style. Use A thread and wrap tightly for a length that is equal to roughly twice the diameter of the ferrule opening. Make sure to get the wrap close to the edge, within 1mm if possible, as this is were any split-out would begin."

Here is another regarding ferrules from Rodmaker Magazine:

"The wrap tension on a ferrule reinforcement wrap should be a fair bit more snug than on a guide wrap. The idea here is to provide a bit of hoop strength for the ferrule, and to prevent a split out from occuring at the edge of the ferrule. Although most manufacturers include some sort of reinforcement wrap on this critical juncture, most also continue to recommend that a thread reinforcement wrap be made as well, regardless of the type ferrule used. On tip-over-butt ferrules or butt-into-tip types, the female ferrule requires a wrap. On spigot (plug) ferrules, both the male and female ferrules should be wrapped.

To make things a bit easier for you, I would suggest starting your wrap away from the ferrule edge and wrapping towards that edge. You may need to insert the but/tip section into the ferrule opening in order to support the open end of the ferrule. Make the insertion depth before wrapping and take care that your wrapping tension is not so tight as to constrict the female ferrule opening to the point where you cannot fully seat the ferrule.

Make sure to wrap almost to the very edge of the ferrule, at least within 1mm to 2mm, since split-outs start at the very edge. Many builders debate how long the wraps should be, and in my opinion, most make the reinforcement wraps much too long. For years I settled on a formula having the length being twice the outside diameter at the ferrule opening and have an absolutely zero failure rate at the ferrule. If you do not feel comfortable with this, I suggest calling the manufacturer of your particular blank and asking for their recommendation as to the ferrule reinforcement wrap length which should be used.

I would also like to make a suggestion to any of the blank manufacturers who do not indicated such in or on their blank packaging, to kindly instruct the builder as to whether or not such a reinforcement wrap is necessary, and how long it should be. Doing so might help prevent many failed blanks from being returned for replacement. ~ Tom Kirkman"

Last edited by FlyFlinger2421; 08-13-2012 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2012, 10:28 PM
biggie_robs's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA, USA
Posts: 516
biggie_robs is just really nicebiggie_robs is just really nicebiggie_robs is just really nicebiggie_robs is just really nice
Default Re: 2-piece blanks

FYI, you can get a 2pc 8'6" T & T Horizon II Saltwater 13wt blank for a sweet price at Madison River Fly Shop right now. You want ferrule strength? I suspect that blank will have all kinds of strength to spare.

Also TFO 8 and 10wt signature blanks, both 9' if you happen to be interested.

Again, just FYI.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
10' 3 and/or 4wt Blanks FlyBum Fly Rod Building 8 11-20-2012 10:25 PM
Custom 6/7 Line 9 ft 4 piece Fly Fishing Rod w G Loomis Graphite Blanks Ebay USA Fly Rods for sale 0 07-19-2012 06:20 PM
Sites for rod blanks? oaktree_1776 Fly Rod Building 4 07-06-2011 10:29 PM
Are some Redington blanks Sage blanks? dorian.ducker Fly Rods 26 02-11-2008 05:07 PM
IM6 Blanks burns Fly Rods 2 10-16-2007 06:52 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.