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Old 11-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

All this guide size and position **** makes me want to build a 14' Tenkara rod.

Edit- So i get **** for typing cr@p?
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

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Originally Posted by mojo View Post
All this guide size and position **** makes me want to build a 14' Tenkara rod.
I wondered about building one, then I realized once I bought the blank I'd just be making a grip. Getting one for Christmas though
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

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Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
Just more sand to add to the Vasoline...

An acquaintance who is into competitive casting and who practices in a machine shop warehouse noticed that his guides were wearing out at the 7-8:00 position (with the rod held normally, rings down, feet up at the 12:00 position) He's a right-handed caster.
Some of us have taken to rigging our rods so the guides are offset to that 7:00 position in hopes of eliminating a bit of friction.
No one knows for sure whether that works or not but neither can anyone say that it hurts.

Whatever the case, it does seem to help the psyche somewhat.
Very interesting. I know you understand rod grips so the photos are for other readers.

I wonder if he hold the rod with the thumb on top grip but when he actually does the forward stroke, he rotates the rod so the fly reel points to the outside. The forward stroke then is done with the V grip or the palm out grip.

When I look at videos of casters, there is some confusion about holding the rod with the thumb on top grip in the static position vs how they actually cast with that grip.

I've noticed that some fly casters hold the grip that way but when they actually cast, they rotate the rod hand so that the side of the fly reel faces forward on the cast. This places the thumb more to inside of the cork as the rod stroke goes forward. Then this becomes the palm out grip.

Here is a photo from Mel Krieger's book, The Essence of Fly Casting. From left to right, they are the thumb on top grip, the V grip, and the palm out grip. As you can see, as you rotate the reel out, the casting grip changes.

As Mel Krieger's description indicates, the grip is how you hold your rod as you make the casting stroke.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

As you watch the caster below, you will see that he rotates the rod so that the reel is to the side and he uses the palm out grip. This is also what I see with Rajeff and why I think Al Kyte says that Rajeff uses the palm out grip. I doubt Al Kyte would confuse Rajeff grip for a thumb on top grip.

Any rotation of the rod during the cast would place the fly line at an axis to the 12 and 6 O'clock position. A 30 degree rotation counterclockwise (supination) as seen from the rod butt of the fly rod during the cast would place the fly line a 7 O'Clock. Anatomically this would be described as supination of the hand and wrist during the cast.

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Last edited by silver creek; 11-20-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

I am liking the intellectual character of this thread. I wish to re-emphasize my initial premise that the guides have a dual impact on a rods functionality; casting and line manipulation. Diver Dan, the question of a large tip-top loop guide is interesting and plays into this duality. In saltwater size rods where casting far is more relevant than line mending, large guides and especially the tip-top are, I think, important. Not just for the free-flowing, limited line-slap issue but, as we often have a lot of running line piled on a boat deck, in a stripping basket or trailing behind us while wading a flat, there is a greater risk of small loop tangles forming and when that line goes flying out of the guides and a staccato tick, tick, tick of a knot is heard, I sure hope it will clear the guides and not bust off the bonefish! At the same time, from a rod design perspective, 7-weight plus rods have thicker blank tip diameters than would light line rods and can sustain a heavier tip guide with less negative effect. Rod designers like Hardy's great, Howard Croston (Angel, Zenith, Proaxis...), detests weight in the tip of his trout rods. You know how the pear shaped loop of a tip-top is set in a tapered tube to fit over the blank? He cuts the length of that tube by a third to reduce mass on Zenith's extraordinarily responsive tips. Anything to increase recovery rate. Along those same lines, modern light and flexible nickle titanium guides whether snake or single foot are a positive for rod design. Those of us old enough to appreciate the multiple coats of low viscosity finish applied to wraps in the good old days recall the flat, even finish that barely if at all extended onto the blank as opposed to today's ubiquitous single coat glob of polymer that spreads and bulges adding unnecessary extra mass to the guides through its ease of application excess. There is little doubt that any addition of mass to a rod's blank impacts the purity of its theoretical performance to the chagrin of rod designers, further there is also no question that an angler's applying his relative mastery of casting dynamics, particularly the elimination of slack in any phase of the stroke, is also effected by guide size (assuming correct placement).

What remains a sticking point (pun intended) for me is the duality of certain trout rods being brilliant casting instruments but challenged line manipulation tools due to the guide size/type specified by their fundamental design.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Here's a Dorber "UltraWave" fly rod. It is one of the strangest fly rods I have seen. It has 17 oversized guides plus the tip top on a 9 ft fly rod instead of 11 guides on a Sage.

I haven't seen much on this rod since it was introduced almost 2 years ago, nor anything from Fox Statler since he said, "They are the greatest fly rod I have ever cast or fished."

On a subsequent post he says, "The UltraWave is a Thoroughbred in a field of ponies. Straight blank manufactures are a Giant Step behind and Dorber is leading by a mile. UltraWave rods are the greatest advancement in fishing since snake guides." Hence, I post it here. Snake guides, meet the UltraWave...........

Interesting comparison since the UltraWave kind of looks like a flattened snake guide..........

Dorber New UltraWave rod

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by williamhj View Post
I wondered about building one, then I realized once I bought the blank I'd just be making a grip. Getting one for Christmas though
Right. You might have to glue the tip top on too.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
Here's a Dorber "UltraWave" fly rod. It is one of the strangest fly rods I have seen. It has 17 oversized guides plus the tip top on a 9 ft fly rod instead of 11 guides on a Sage.

I haven't seen much on this rod since it was introduced almost 2 years ago, nor anything from Fox Statler since he said, "They are the greatest fly rod I have ever cast or fished."

On a subsequent post he says, "The UltraWave is a Thoroughbred in a field of ponies. Straight blank manufactures are a Giant Step behind and Dorber is leading by a mile. UltraWave rods are the greatest advancement in fishing since snake guides." Hence, I post it here. Snake guides, meet the UltraWave...........

Interesting comparison since the UltraWave kind of looks like a flattened snake guide..........

Dorber New UltraWave rod

Click the image to open in full size.
Has it taken the world by storm yet? Fox. Fox. Are you out there?
Thanks for bringing that back again SC
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Until I ran across this site: UP (Ultimate Performance) Fly Rods, Wave Fly Rods, Innovative Custom Fly Fishing Instruments - Fox Statler's custom fly rods I thought there were few absolutes in the fly fishing world.

Oops, and a video too to help explain how the rest of the world is doing it all wrong...
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Man ... I'm speechless!

I do not know anything about Mr. Fox Statler, I do recall the wave rod thread. Look all that line go shooting out of that rod! (don't look where it's going!)

OK...I am enjoying this thread as I'm planning on putting together a new rod this winter, and I don't want to hijack it, but this has got me thinking about guides quite a bit. Probably too much. I've been looking at the single foot Recoils. Jackster, I believe that you use them, I recall from a thread from the past. I was opposed to single footers but I'm considering them now...for a change of style. Do they really recoil if wacked, god forbid?

I will start a new thread with further questions as to not get too far off this one's original theme ... or should I say further? Carry on.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: Snake Guides Effect on Casting and Fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
Some of us have taken to rigging our rods so the guides are offset to that 7:00 position in hopes of eliminating a bit of friction.
I have discussed this sort of. I have heard discussions where in a right hand guy, the first stripper is turned to 7:00 or 8:00 for the same reason. Help eliminate friction of the line coming up from that side of the rod, but not all of the guides. I have given consideration to turning the first couple so it a less abrupt turn. Like 8 for the first and 7 for the second. But 6 the rest of the way up. Actually, that 'cocking' the first stripper thing has been going around for years.

I watched the video and read his article. I'm not that impressed. That rod he's casting has some really weird counterflex/wave things going on. I also notice he's casting all of what 30' of line? I think he's trying to make a gimmicky sales pitch. One more thing. That line 'belly' can be controled with your line hand and your cast. Getting the slack out of the line is a skill, not a rod.
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