The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > Tackle Talk > Fly Rods

Fly Rods Post any comments or questions regarding fly rods...

Like Tree43Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2013, 08:34 PM
fishngolf16's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 93
fishngolf16 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

I am a big Winston fan but seeing Tom Morgan at number 2 and Winston's BIIIx at nine do you wonder which way the former owners company is going?
biggie_robs likes this.
__________________
Coy
"Share your passion with others"
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2013, 08:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 144
dpreller is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

im with shimloom. i love my scott g2s anderson never really cares for them but i enjoy the hell out of fishing them and they sure seem to work for me. what anyine else likes doesnt concern me especially since he fishes two thirds of the way across the country in very different conditions than me.
shimloom likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2013, 08:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Boston, Mass.
Posts: 954
moucheur2003 is a jewel in the roughmoucheur2003 is a jewel in the roughmoucheur2003 is a jewel in the roughmoucheur2003 is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Quote:
Originally Posted by troutnut4 View Post
do you think that George might have been under a little pressure to find a new winner when he gave the Loomis an extra .5 of a point in the 25' category and an additional full point in the 45' (20.5 & 21 out of 20). Hardy and the others were scored out of 20, Loomis.. out of 21! I my mind they tied. You might have guessed, I am a Hardy fan since I bought that first Zenith. Just my thoughts.
I find there is an especially obvious "thumb on the scale" in the supposedly quantitative rankings this year. For example, if you eliminate the entirely subjective "fun to fish" and "perfect 5 weight" rankings, and drop the Loomis NRX ratings down to the objective maximum score of 20 where they have been scored with gratuitous extra points, the Orvis H2 tip flex actually edges ahead of the NRX.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of usefulness in the qualitative comments. Where the review notes that the NRX is better than the Zenith at shorter distances, I find that credible. I test cast the Orvis H2 8' 5" mid flex (a rod excluded from the shootout) against the Zenith at a show this past winter, and I found them equivalent in quality but with different strengths: the Zenith could fling out a long cast accurately and effortlessly but lost some sensitivity and control close in, while the H2 was sheer bliss at short and medium distances but no match for the Zenith for longer casts. Anderson's commentary does compare these kinds of differences among the various models, and I think those observations are probably more helpful than the absolute rankings.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:29 PM
runningfish's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alberta and California
Posts: 961
runningfish is a glorious beacon of lightrunningfish is a glorious beacon of lightrunningfish is a glorious beacon of lightrunningfish is a glorious beacon of lightrunningfish is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Quote:
Originally Posted by moucheur2003 View Post
I find there is an especially obvious "thumb on the scale" in the supposedly quantitative rankings this year. For example, if you eliminate the entirely subjective "fun to fish" and "perfect 5 weight" rankings, and drop the Loomis NRX ratings down to the objective maximum score of 20 where they have been scored with gratuitous extra points, the Orvis H2 tip flex actually edges ahead of the NRX.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of usefulness in the qualitative comments. Where the review notes that the NRX is better than the Zenith at shorter distances, I find that credible. I test cast the Orvis H2 8' 5" mid flex (a rod excluded from the shootout) against the Zenith at a show this past winter, and I found them equivalent in quality but with different strengths: the Zenith could fling out a long cast accurately and effortlessly but lost some sensitivity and control close in, while the H2 was sheer bliss at short and medium distances but no match for the Zenith for longer casts. Anderson's commentary does compare these kinds of differences among the various models, and I think those observations are probably more helpful than the absolute rankings.
I agree with Monseur on his opinion about the Helios and Zenith. Prior to purchasing my Zeniths, I tested the Helios as well and shorter distance the Helios have more control. But I choose Zenith since I fish from the shore casting into deep windy reservoirs and lakes.

I really disagree with the extra points system. Why did you set the 20 max points when you can go over it, that is just pure BS in my opinion.
BlueDun likes this.
__________________
BEWARE...Once you switched, you can't switch back. : and NO, I am not an expert, I just think like one.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2013, 06:48 AM
petee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Central Coast of Calif
Posts: 279
petee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to beholdpetee is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Until they ruin a bunch of beautiful rods by painting them black, for any testing other than appearance, I don't see how they can't be bias. I know I am a bit bias toward my favorite brand of anything no matter how hard I try to be unbias. Example: Browning firearms are my favorite. I see that buck logo on a gun and its all over.

When it comes down to a slight margin to decide the victor, any wee bit of bias can affect the results.

Just my $.02,
Pete
__________________
"Blessed is the fly fisher who's quiver contains grass, glass & graphite custom rods." Book of Rods 3:16
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:57 AM
plecain's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 731
plecain is just really niceplecain is just really niceplecain is just really niceplecain is just really niceplecain is just really nice
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Some have asked what happened to the Sage ONE.

I read the comments in the shootout. The one that jumped out at me was the comment that said the ONE needs a heavier line, like maybe a 6 wt.

That's exactly what I found. I have a 4 wt ONE (486), not a 5. With a 4 wt line, it's not good. With a 5.5 wt line (GPX), it's worlds better.

When I measured the ERN of the rod, it came out to 5.56. No wonder the 5.5 weight line worked better.
__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out and proclaiming, 'Wow. What a ride!!!'
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:50 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 7
beninfl is on a distinguished road
Talking Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

First, I'd like to take the time to commend George on his test. He really does a great job of breaking down the rods available in the market.

Second, the deeper I get into the sport of fly fishing, the less I care about the 9' 5wt, as I'd rather carry two rods that are more specialized.

Now for the criticism:

1. Categories aren't consistent year after year - no "nymphing" category, swing weight now worth 20 pts, etc.
2. Are the categories out of 20 pts? What's the deal with more than 20 for some rods...
3. More on swing weight - as a golfer, one swing weight change is the weight of a dollar bill on the end of your club. If you want a lighter swing weight, you can easily adjust this by taping lead to the back of your reel, etc.

This obviously takes his buddy Tom Morgan out of the spotlight (not that it was for most people anyway).

I'm looking forward to casting the new Loomis and seeing how it compares to my Zenith :-)

Also, it looks like Yellowstoneangler.com was hacked earlier today - haha.
kwb likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:32 AM
sweetandsalt's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: -
Posts: 2,308
sweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant futuresweetandsalt has a brilliant future
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Having read the Shootout in its entirety now, I still find its comparative data valuable but I have issues. From #12 (TFO BVK) north, OK, but the rankings below that get a lot of disrespect. I am certain from what George writes that many rods are submitted that "don't make the cut"...and they go un-mentioned. However, rods that did make the "cut" but are described in derogatory terms might just ass well not have been included too. As you all know, I am fine with constructive criticism especially on a comparative basis and this has been the cornerstone of my support for these shootouts. It is not cool though to employ derogatory terms to denigrate the creative work of rod makers (or anyone) in public print. Visit the thread in this forum about Clutch rods for my specific observation.

I own rods from no fewer than ten of the makers featured in this Shootout. Not necessarily 5-weights of course and many I utilize in specialized ways. On a personal, subjective note, and I have written about this before, I differ from Anderson's and many others view that a "dry fly" rod best feature a softer, deeper flexing tip. As my style of fishing involves elaborate in air mends, wiggles and reaching, I prefer a crisper, quick recovering tip with a lively feel. So I travel to the river with both 9'/#5 Zenith and Sage ONE...two light weight responsive and communicative rods that, depending on conditions, assist me in executing the type of presentations I enjoy.

Not having cast the G.Loomis NRX LP (though I will), I am willing to bet that I would prefer my existing NRX original 9'/#4 over it. Similarly, as visible in the flex charts, rods like Circa and Tom Morgan Special (gorgeous though it may be and with no disrespect intended) would be too low flexing for my presentation style...my personal "filter" on these tests. My West Coast fishing partner just won the 8'9"/#4 Circa in a Portland, OR casting contest so we will have one in camp this Summer to experiment with but at Somerset I pond cast one and was non-plused. Similarly, I suspect I might prefer the Zenith (which I love) over the somewhat similar but lower tech Loop also for too soft a tip. Even with crisp tipped ONE, I never pop even 6X tippet on the strike so a more delicate shock absorbent tip simply sponges up response time and communication feel for me. And the number of 25 foot casts I make with a 9'/#5 are very few indeed, I would be using a different rod for such a circumstance.

There are many great new rods in this Shootout and much data and observations to ponder. I agree that "off the charts" 20.5 points is a bit "off the charts" and price, warranty and perfect 5-weight (even odder as the rods are tested primarily with a 5.5 weight GPX, a poor dry fly, blunt design) are irrelevant scoring points though useful information to otherwise include. Mostly I would prefer to not read that brand X is a "rugbeater', "Mistake" and should best be sold at "Wall Mart".
kwb and dillon like this.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Driftless/MRV
Posts: 1,723
itchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to beholditchmesir is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

Quote:
Originally Posted by petee View Post
Until they ruin a bunch of beautiful rods by painting them black, for any testing other than appearance, I don't see how they can't be bias. I know I am a bit bias toward my favorite brand of anything no matter how hard I try to be unbias. Example: Browning firearms are my favorite. I see that buck logo on a gun and its all over.

When it comes down to a slight margin to decide the victor, any wee bit of bias can affect the results.

Just my $.02,
Pete
I'd definitely take these shootouts more seriously if this was the case... It's pretty tough to know what you're holding and not be biased one way or another... after all.. we're fly fishermen... We're all heavily opinionated and if you love St. Croix, Orvis, G.Loomis, Sage, Redington, TFO or any other rod maker out there... It's gonna be tough for anyone to convince us otherwise
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2013, 03:12 PM
trout trekker's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West Slope Sierra Range, CA.
Posts: 449
trout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to beholdtrout trekker is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: 2013 5-Weight Shootout

This shootout seems to lack the polish of the those in the past, it contains enough typos to have been written by me.
Other than that and the lack of tact in lampooning a few rod makers for their submissions, by calling them out publicly for “daring to compare” their premium offerings to one’s Anderson’s crew admires. This does nothing more than affirm that there is a strong human element involved in all of this and the findings of these test are not the product of a calibrated instrument.
This helps to remind me that these are their opinions, based on their likes and dislikes, the lines and leaders chosen to test with and most importantly, what they “ think” a nine foot five weight rod should be and do. All of which has little to do with many of the things that I commonly ask of a nine foot five weight rod.

I do appreciate the reintroduction of the flex profile boards, these carry more weight with me than most of the written descriptions and comparisons conveyed by the article.

All in all, having read several of these reviews, ( that’s what they really are ). I’ve come to understand “Anderson speak”, having learned his preferences and how they differ from my own. This allows me to filter through their findings and to put into perspective how those finding conflict or coincide with my own. Using this process, I’ve found that more times than not, I agree with what they’ve found. Whether or not it has anything to do with my tastes & applications is another thing. So when they seemingly are harsh on a given rod that you may like, remember, they may not have been looking for those same characteristic in a 9’ 5wt.

For instance. If you were selecting a 9’ 5 weight rod for fishing from a low slung craft such as a float tube on Stillwater’s. Say for a moment that distance was a premium and you’re likely to use 6’ to 7 foot leader. Casting and stripping flies like small leaches, damsel and dragon nymphs mostly. Maybe accuracy wasn’t always paramount. It would be nice if that rod could roll a section of full sinking line up and out of the water a couple of hundred times a day, without collapsing under the load or requiring a greater range in motion or with greater energy than absolutely necessary.

Vs.

A wading, shore bound or standing drift boat angler, who is according to the tests, using a 12 foot leader and who through their constant references, is very concerned with how the rod will deliver a dry fly, at all ranges. The line will be Weight Forward Floating line.

While life isn't usually an either - or proposition, each application has its own needs and it’s own merits. The angler in the first scenario is no less a trout angler, no less serious about their pursuit as the latter. But the rods they employ could be deeply at odds in design.
So if your favorite rod didn’t make the shoot out or made the list ( congratulations on that….many fine rods didn’t ) but didn’t make the top ten. Don’t dismay, the designers might have envisioned some other applications or a wider range of applications for that model, that were not being tested for in this review.

Let’s also keep in mind that in each case, the shootout is referring to one specific model ( 9’ - 5 wt. ) in a product line and not the entire line of those rods. Anderson has made that point himself in past shootouts. Just because the findings on one particular model in a product line may not be flattering, does not mean that the 9’ - 4 wt. or 9’ - 8 wt. rod of the same product line wouldn’t be a winner in their view. It’s happened in their reviews before.

Enjoy your rods guys and gals, TT
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Yellowstone Angler 8 Weight Shootout Discussion chicagojohn Fly Rods 36 03-31-2013 10:36 AM
Hardy Rods Still Ahead Of The Rest In Yellowstone Angler 2013 5 Weight Mini-Shootout. Editor News & articles for discussion 10 02-12-2013 12:34 PM
2013 5-Weight Shootout - The Preview sweetandsalt Fly Rods 45 02-08-2013 01:24 PM
George Anderson's "4-Weight Shootout" sweetandsalt Fly Rods 60 10-30-2012 03:35 PM
Yellowstone Angler's 4 weight shootout Editor News & articles for discussion 1 04-05-2012 07:03 AM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.