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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2014, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Whew! Couldn't have made that 40' cast to catch that 12" trout with a brain the size of a pea, without all the high math and theoretical physics. And opinions of all the "experts" here.

Guys, it's only fishing. A recreational pursuit and lifestyle for some. You all need to fish more and enjoy it to the fullest. This discussion is so esoteric and unnecessary. Quit taking yourselves so seriously.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
Whew! Couldn't have made that 40' cast to catch that 12" trout with a brain the size of a pea, without all the high math and theoretical physics. And opinions of all the "experts" here. .
Can you prove that is correct
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Come on, coolhand, this has ben a very thought provoking thread...I for one, and I am a serious type, have long been confused about the "swing weight" measurement and now I understand better why I am confused. It is not just fishing, it is Winter and there is no physical fishing for me, so this kind of thread is edifying sublimation as fly fishing, as you say, is my way of life (ain't that something!). You too get quite serious about your analysis of the casting properties of high tech rods.

It is not about catching fish (which most of us are going to release) it is the gestalt of being a fly fisherman.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:29 AM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Oh c'mon now.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

S&S, I, too am puzzled about "swing weight/dynamic weight" and meaningful metrics measuring it. However, this discussion isn't helping my understanding much.

I do know that some rods cast "heavy" or at least "heavier" than others in the same length and line designation when the actual, physical, weight of the rods is pretty close to the same. Obviously, weight distribution throughout the blank itself is a factor, flex distribution, important, balance with reel/line also critical.

But, really, this only really matters in a head to head comparison of rods. And the "swing weight" is only one of many attributes of a particular rod model. It is up to the individual as to it's importance. For me, not so much.

I look at the "swing weight" metrics that are posted on the Yellowstone Anglers Shootouts, and sometimes they agree with what I "feel", and sometimes, it doesn't jive with what I actually experience when casting.

The reality is that this is far too difficult to measure. The human factor in the fly cast is a massive variable. Put 10 really good casters in a row and watch them, not one will have the same mechanics. Now apply this across all fly casters (most with modest abilities), what to you have? Now we really are in the realm of "theoretical" physics.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

I agree, or more precisely "feel" the same as you about this swing weight subject. Since I feel this disparity among like weight rods, exchanges like this one inform me a bit more as to how to understand it better. However, I never write "down" to my fellow fly fishers on the forum, I presume adequate casting skill knowing, from World experience, that most anglers are not skilled or even practiced. From your writing I can tell that you are as I believe burk and silver to be as well...one can just tell who has a stroke, yes? When we have a thread focused on sophisticated rods and their attributes many can learn something and those uninterested can and do just tune out.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetandsalt View Post

Come on, coolhand, this has ben a very thought provoking thread...I for one, and I am a serious type, have long been confused about the "swing weight" measurement and now I understand better why I am confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post

S&S, I, too am puzzled about "swing weight/dynamic weight" and meaningful metrics measuring it. However, this discussion isn't helping my understanding much.

I do know that some rods cast "heavy" or at least "heavier" than others in the same length and line designation when the actual, physical, weight of the rods is pretty close to the same. Obviously, weight distribution throughout the blank itself is a factor, flex distribution, important, balance with reel/line also critical.

The reality is that this is far too difficult to measure. The human factor in the fly cast is a massive variable. Put 10 really good casters in a row and watch them, not one will have the same mechanics. Now apply this across all fly casters (most with modest abilities), what to you have? Now we really are in the realm of "theoretical" physics.
You both state that you are unsure what swing weight is. I will define swing weight, but it may not help unless you are familiar with physics.

The first rule of Rhetoric, Argumentation, and Persuasion is that the two parties must agree on the definition of the terms being used in the discussion. If we cannot agree on what "swing weight" is then there really cannot be any agreement because we differ in our basic definitions.

Because of this fact, very early on in my initial reply, I gave a definition of what I considered swing weight and dynamic weight to be. I defined it as related to TORQUE. Later I will define it as a very specific property of a rotating mass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
I disagree.

What he is trying to describe is related to "torque" or the twisting force that we feel when we must stop or start a rod during casting. In one case we are applying torque to stop the rod and in the other we are applying torque to get the rod to swing.
As I noted above, torque and the related property of torque, which is angular or rotational momentum, is what we feel as swing weight.

This may not help unless one is able to conceptualize angular momentum. I personally don't think it is a difficult concept. It is the momentum of a rotating object. I quote Dirk as describing, "Dynamic Weight (as) the perceived weight of the entire rod, reel and line combination as it is put in motion through the casting arc," it is apparent to me that Dirk is describing angular momentum as well. It is the sensation of a mass (weight) that is rotating through an angle (the casting arc).

"In physics, angular momentum, moment of momentum, or rotational momentum[1][2] is a measure of the amount of rotation an object has, taking into account its mass, shape and speed.3"


When you read the Wikipedia articles on torque and angular momentum, you will realize that we apply torque to the rod handle both to get the rod to rotate and stop during fly casting. The sensation of the rotating rod during the cast is angular momentum.

Although angular momentum is what I consider "swing weight" to be, I use the term swing weight because the average fly fisher has never heard of angular momentum.

BTW,

I discussed defined swing weight as angular momentum on this post:

Swing weight question ?
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Hi Silver, Being trained more in the Arts than Sciences I, more-or-less, followed your logic regarding inertia, mass, and energy. As you are aware from my writing, I am sensitive to mass distribution in both rods' and lines' tapers and their relationship. It is the comparative measurement and assigning a fly fishing relevant value to Swing Weight that confuses me. Even with the effort to minimize variables, which itself is problematic due to the specific line requirements of different rods to optimize their best performance, I fail to conceptualize a meaningful comparative rating system.

I have super light rods and robust rods too; they serve varied angling circumstances. I applaud the advanced matrix technologies for affording rod designers the potential to make light, slender rods that are also strong. I love the concept of objective, comparative analysis and any metric that can assist in enlightening the angler to the meritus achievements of rod design/building I believe benefits the thoughtful fly fisher.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

SS,

The reason I liked how The Yellowstone Anglers explained swing weight was that it was a single concept of static mass distribution along the rod shaft - "that weight you feel out ahead of your hand when you hold the rod in a horizontal position.”

Although swing weight is Rotational Momentum, what the Yellowstone Angler described is "Static" momentum which is inertia, which is due to mass, which is felt as weight due to gravity. The rotational velocity component is missing in static momentum, but since the value of rotational momentum varies with the speed and axis of rotation; if two rods have the same rotational speed and axis of rotation, the rod with the higher static inertia distribution along the rod shaft will have the higher rotational momentum. So with an apples to apples comparison, we can compare the "that weight you feel out ahead of your hand when you hold the rod in a horizontal position” between two rods of the same length to get an idea of swing weight as we cast those rods.

There is a precedent for this type of comparison. Consider the Common Cents System that uses a static metric to estimate the line rating of a fly rod. The more "cents" it takes, the higher the line rating.

The Yellowstone Angler's definition is an attempt to use a static measurement to estimate what the comparative rotational momentums would be between two rods of the same length at the same rotation velocity.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: Swing weight verse Dynamic weight

Here is a video of a tailing loop demonstration but it will illustrate what I mean by applying torque to rotate the fly rod through the casting arc and then torque in the opposite direction to stop the rod so the loop can form.

Click the image to open in full size.

Notice that the caster pushes forward against the rod handle to rotate the the fly rod. His push is the force F and the radius r is the distance from the end of the rod handle at the table top to where he is pushing. See the video from the Wikipedia reference below where r and F are illustrated. At the stop he pulls back creating torque in the opposite direction.

Click the image to open in full size.

This is an illustration of Newton's first law of motion. "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

Newton's third law of motion is what we feel as swing weight. "Third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first body." We are the "first body" and the fly rod is the "second body". The angular momentum of the fly rod opposes us when we are accelerating it and when we are stopping it, and that opposition of the fly rod is the swing weight.

Newton's laws of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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