My Next Next Rod...PA Small Streams

[miamimikepa]

Hey guys,

So I've obviously been bitten by the fly fishing bug. Got into it a few months back starting out with a 10' 8wt Orvis Clearwater outfit for salmon/steelhead/smallmouth and made my way to a 9' 5wt Scott Radian with an Abel Super 4N for trout. Next up is the bonefish outfit, which as of now is looking like a 9' 8wt G Loomis NRX with Hatch 7+. The thing is the bonefish trip isn't till November and I will end up trout fishing more than anything so I'm starting to consider a 2nd trout setup.

So far I've been all over the place. Every time I think I know what I want I change my mind. Was considering doing a short fiberglass outfit and was considering the Scott F2 6'6" 3wt or the Orvis Super Fine Glass 7' 3wt and pairing it with an Abel Creek 1 LA.

Next, I was leaning more toward an 8' 4wt, which seems to be really popular. The 2 rods I was looking at, Scott G2 & Sage Circa, don't come in 8' so do I go slightly down or up? In the G2 the option would be 7'7" or 8'4" and in the Circa the options would be 7'9" or 8'9". Seems like 8' is the go to length in 4wt, but the G2 in 8'4" has got great reviews...not much on the Circa. Was also looking to pair this with the Abel Creek 1, but with the MA instead of LA. Other thought was if I go 4wt, maybe I don't need to run out and get a reel I can just get another spool for my Abel Super 4N. I know spool changes aren't quick, but I'm a 1 rod/reel to the water guy. Depending on the water I'm going to I grab the best option I have and go with that 1 outfit for the day. So the ease of spool change really isn't a problem.

So after that rant it leaves me at WTF am I going to do with this outfit. It will be primarily used for streams in PA. Both a mix of "normal" stream fishing, which is pretty open as well as some tighter stuff for native brook trout. In the "normal" streams I can fish my 9' just fine, but it would be nice to have a bit shorter rod. In the tight native brookie streams again I am able to fish my 9', but a shorter rod would be an even bigger help here. Would be fishing a 50/50 split of light nymphs and dries, and possibly the occasional small woolly bugger.

My guess is most of you will say the short 3wt for one application and the 4wt for the other. Would love to hear those opinions, but also if you were going to go with 1 rod to do it all what would you go with and why. What disadvantages would you face by going the 1 rod route. Bigger water, like rivers, is not a concern at all as I use the Scott Radian for that.

Thanks
Mike

 

[attila]

I'd go with a 5wt. And anywhere from 7' to 8.4'
The action you prefer would be of your choice.

 

[plecain]

I don't know how small these streams are. If they're really small, I'd probably go for something much lighter like a St.Croix Imperial 6' 2 wt. These are only around $200. The Abel TR-Light matches well with this, but any small reel will do.

If you also want something a little bigger, then get a 3 wt or 4 wt in the 8' to 9' range. Maybe even longer for nymphing.

You'd have more options than with just one new 4-5 wt.

 

[moucheur2003]

8' 4 wt is what I would be thinking too. Years ago, when I was buying my second trout rod, an Orvis guy sold me their 8' 4wt "Western Midge" model, which he said was (at that time) their best-selling rod for central Pennsylvania. I still have it and it is still a sweet rod, so I don't know what's out there currently. But if you can't find one in a Scott or a Sage, check out what Orvis, Hardy and Loomis have to offer.

If you were going to fish really small streams in brushy, close quarters for the most part, though, I would probably recommend a 7' 4 weight instead. But we are talking about small advantages at the margins, not huge differences.

AS for your saltwater choice, if I were buying one of those I would probably choose the NRX. I have an old 9' 8 wt Loomis IMX that I love, and the NRX is probably even better. It just won the Yellowstone Angler 2014 8-weight shootout, for whatever that's worth.

 

[labtrout]

If my one trout rod was a 9-foot 5-weight, I'd be looking at adding a 7 1/2 to 8-foot 4-weight before going to anything like a 2-weight outfit, which is much more specialized and generally limited to conditions requiring short casts to fussy fish when there is no wind. I have owned the 7'7" Scott G2 4-weight and it's a nice, smooth rod that would be a good choice for small streams and also would serve you as a good dry-fly rod on medium-sized waters for small flies and tippets, something you will need during certain times of the season and that your Radian might not excel at.

Also, I think your Abel Super 4N may be too much reel for any 4-weight; you are not likely to need such a powerful drag on smaller streams and that reel would probably not balance well on a shorter rod. I like your idea of an Abel Creek 1 with standard arbor. There are lots of good spring and pawl reels out there from a used Hardy Lightweight (LRH or Featherweight would work) or a used Orvis CFO III to the new Orvis Battenkills or CFOs.

 

[mrfzx]

I fish a lot of small (most are less than 2 strides wide in spots) steams fro native brookies here in Somerset County, PA. My go to rods: I have a BVK 3wt with the conversion kit, and an older Fenwick Feralite 6'6" 5wt glass rod. The BVK can be fished as an 8 footer or adding in the extra sections a 10 footer for czech style nymphing. I have the BVK matched with a Marryat MR7 reel with an extra spool for a 4wt line in 10' configuration.

The little Fenwick is a true gem of a rod. I have it matched to (wait for it) a vintage Perrine spring loaded automatic reel. Its purely for sentimental reasons, as my grandfather fished this reel on his old 10' cane rod for as long as he fished. You can still pick up one of the old shorter Fenwick rods like mine on ebay.....but they do bring over $100 usually.

 

[comeonavs]

Just my $.02 on the Circa, as I have one and love it, if I was going to have only 1 trout stream rod it would not be the circa. I would pick something more along the lines of the TXLF-f in a 4710-4. The Circa while a absolutely beautiful rod and phenomenal ability to softly present dry flies. It is also the rod that if I get where I am going and the wind is blowing I leave it in the truck and grab the legend ultra, Sage ONE, TXL or even ZXL I brought with me.

I don't feel like I would have the ability to cast it in the wind. Mind you mine is a 3wt not a 4wt. Combine that with the fact trout stream doesn't always = dry fly fishing. There is lots of nymph unit, hopper dropper, strike indicator type of fishing. My personal assessment of my ability and that rod is when I think double tungsten bead nymphs and a yarn indicator I think TXL, ONE, Etc etc , not my Circa.

Again I have and love the Circa but if I was to only have one 3 or 4 weight, it wouldn't be the Circa.

I know you don't mind buying top end gear so for small streams my choices would be


Sage TXL 4710-4
Winston Biix 480-4
Allen ICON 486-4
Sage ONE 486-4

 

[miamimikepa]

A 2wt and 5wt are out of the question. I already have a 5wt and I agree with the comments that the 2wt is more specialized than I'm looking for.

Labtrout, what made you go with the 7'7" G2 and not the 8'4" or 8'8" G2? Seems like the 2 longer are considerably more popular, just curious what made you go shorter. What do you lose/gain in the G2 by going shorter. It would be nice to have a shorter rod, for ease of use in some tight spots, but where I will be fishing it isn't necessarily a must.

Comeonavs, I get what you are saying, but my concern with going the route you are suggesting is that it will be too similar to what I already have. I do and will still fish the Radian on certain small streams. Just looking for something a little more specialized when the fast action rod isn't the best option.

 

[labtrout]

To tell the truth, I had both the 8'4" and the 7'7" versions of the 4-weight. You're right, the 8'4" is more versatile for general trout fishing, but I liked the 7'7" for small streams. I actually prefer my old Winston IM6 7'6" 4-weight, but I had bought the Scott for its packability (if that's a word). I like progressive, moderate action rods like Scott G/G2 and Winston IM6/WT, particularly in light-line weights where precision and tippet protection trumps distance.

 

[miamimikepa]

I'm sure both were great dry fly rods, but how were they at nymphing? What difference did you see between the 2 rods?

 

[sweetandsalt]

There are many PA streams where your #5 Radian will be great. Like Moucheur, I got an Orvis Western 8'/#4 in the mid 80's and have yet to find a rod to replace it with....I even prefer it to the vaunted Tom Morgan Special. I mount it with a CFO IV and have featured it in Rod Love here. But I fish an 8 1/2'/#4 more than that rod because I prefer that length in most environments and fish the 8' rod in smaller brooks only. I am not put off by "off" lengths like 8'3" or 8'8" but I just don't fish line weights lighter than #4. There is inadequate mass to articulately control line and leader in 3-weight and down, I experimented down to 2-weight and found I achieved far gentler presentation of the fly with #'s 4 and 5. Presentation of the fly not gentler feeling in my hand...to the fish, that doesn't count.

The perfect 8 1/2'/#4? I have some excellent ones: a 2pc. Loomis GLX, an Orvis prototype never built (the tip was too fine!), one of the best yet, original Redington's Nano 3pc. and the 3pc. Albright EXS relative to that rod, I was disappointed in my friend Sam's BIIx effort but am very fond of Loomis's reworked GLX, Streamdance and Hardy's Zenith both in 4pc. I am currently fishing the Streamdance with a Nautilus FWX 5/6 and #4 SA Textured Trout, a sweet spring creek outfit but I am still in the hunt. I tried the Radian in this size at Somerset and, no. On my to-try list are the ONE and Orvis H2 (regrettably built only in mid-flex) and the 8'9" Burkheimer.

Has anyone fallen in love with an 8 1/2' 4-weight that I am leaving out?

The little Loomis last Season

 

[jaybo41]

My small stream rod is a 470 TXL. I have more 4wts than any other line weight for a reason. They're my most preferred line weight for trout based on versatility of handling dries, nymphs and smaller streamers very well.

I have two 3wts and while I enjoy fishing them, they're not my choice the small brush choked streams here in PA. A 3wt in my opinion is a fairly specialized tool much like you've suggested a 2wt is.

To meet your criteria of: It will be primarily used for streams in PA. Both a mix of "normal" stream fishing, which is pretty open as well as some tighter stuff for native brook trout. In the "normal" streams I can fish my 9' just fine, but it would be nice to have a bit shorter rod. In the tight native brookie streams again I am able to fish my 9', but a shorter rod would be an even bigger help here. Would be fishing a 50/50 split of light nymphs and dries, and possibly the occasional small woolly bugger.


I also appreciate the extra line weight as it's helpful to shoot the line across foliage and other obstacles/debris that can often get in the way. I like Attila's suggestion though I would suggest consideration of a 4wt as well.

My personal belief is that a 4wt anywhere from 7'0 to 8'0 would provide you with the greatest diversity to fish either the tighter streams or the typical open water the smaller rod being more ideal for small streams. What you really need to ask yourself is are you looking for one rod to do both things well or one rod ideally suited for small streams.

 

[miamimikepa]

Good stuff guys! Based on what I'm hearing I am starting to lean toward a 4wt over the 3wt. I think initially I was considering the 3wt because I was worried the 4wt would be too similar to the 5wt I have. Sounds like that is not the case though, esp if I'm leaning toward one of these slower action rods. Seems like the length discussion on the 4wt for what I'm looking for is all over the place though. S&S I think my fishing will primarily be close to what you are describing so if I go G2 I will prob lean more toward the 8'4" than the 7'7". I think this was what originally I wanted, but again was scared it would be to close to what I already have. Will def take a look at that Loomis though!

 

[labtrout]

I agree that a 4-weight rod is ideal for trout fishing, especially here in the East.

There are lots of fly rod choices out there and you will be well served whether you go with a 764, 774, 804, 844, 864 or 884. Brand and action should be based on your personal preferences and needs.

I generally fish Winstons, but the 8'4" Scott G2 is my preferred version of an all-around 4-weight. I like it not only for dries, but for tandem nymphs size 16 or smaller and even small streamers on a floating line. It also roll-casts exceptionally well and protects small tippets. Since you already have the Radian, you obviously know and like Scott rods. So if you are already leaning that way, I would second your choice. By the way, I have owned dozens of rods over the years but have pared back to six, three of which are 4-weights. Like sweetandsalt, I feel no need to go any lighter.

 

[fly_guy12955]

I like a 4wt mid-flex. Best all around trout rod for all appalactions. But I fish more with a 3wt full flex..mo' fun.

A 5wt would be overkill for a good fisherman on small to med steams in the east.

A St Croix Imperial is a fine rod in 4wt. No need to spend another dime over what they cost. If I wanted a true mid-flex, Id go Orvis Access...super rod indeed.

 

[jgentile]

Would be fishing a 50/50 split of light nymphs and dries, and possibly the occasional small woolly bugger.

Mike

Mike,

I am going to go straight up Ard here and recommend an Orvis 7'9" Far and Fine 5wt. It is not nearly as slow as glass and will handle the above applications with ease. The rod in my hands loves Rio Gold wf4 as well as SA Supra 5. I have even heard that overlining the rod to a 6wt is very doable if so desired.

They are kind of over priced on the bay, but you can call Jim West at Orvis and he will sell you a blank or build you a rod. They have all the original mandrels and materials for all tapers. The price for a blank was I believe $139.00

 

[miamimikepa]

labtrout, I am a Scott guy, no doubt about that! To be completely honest for me to buy a rod other than Scott I'd have to fall in love with it as I don't think I've ever held a rod by them that I don't like. The one non Scott that really won me over was the G Loomis NRX in 9' 8wt. Also, pretty sure you guys have convinced me to go 4wt instead of 3wt.

fly_guy12955, I agree, which is why I'm def not adding another 5wt to the quiver. I love the Radian in 5wt and am confident that can cover anything I'd want a 5wt for, but like you said there are times where you want to go lighter. That's what this rod would be. I have a friend who swears by St. Croix. The turn off to me is the 3 shops I go to don't sell them so I'd be buying online w/o ever touching one. I have easy access to Scott, Sage, Winston, G Loomis, Redington, Hardy, & Orvis.

jgentile, very cool idea, but def not at making a rod yet. I'm trying to teach myself how to tie flies right now and cast better. No time for a new hobby at this point and to be honest I'm not a big fan of buying used.

 

[moucheur2003]

Mike,

I am going to go straight up Ard here and recommend an Orvis 7'9" Far and Fine 5wt. It is not nearly as slow as glass and will handle the above applications with ease. The rod in my hands loves Rio Gold wf4 as well as SA Supra 5. I have even heard that overlining the rod to a 6wt is very doable if so desired.

They are kind of over priced on the bay, but you can call Jim West at Orvis and he will sell you a blank or build you a rod. They have all the original mandrels and materials for all tapers. The price for a blank was I believe $139.00

So out-of-production rods and DIY blanks are eligible for comment now too? Cool!

The F&F is a classic, but if you're making that call anyway, also ask if he still has any Small Stream Special blanks lying around, or if he's willing to roll them for you. That 7' 5 wt model was designed especially for fishing in tight spaces and roll casting.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Moucheur, Do you have a Small Stream Special? And I prefer a RIO Gold #4 (really a 4 and a 1/2) on F&F. No way a #6! I think the Scott 8'8" G2 #4 would be a really nice rod to cast beside the Streamdance 8 1/2'/#4 and may you fall in love with one of them. I must say, never having picked one up in my hands, the Orvis H2 in this size does intrigue me...it is what Orvis is good at.

 

[labtrout]

a RIO Gold #4 (really a 4 and a 1/2)

S&S -- I like Rio Gold lines as well, but have been told (by a Rio rep) that the Rio Gold is more like a 1/4 weight higher, so the 4 would be 4 1/4. The Rio Grand is a 1/2 line weight higher. Not sure if that's technically true in grain weight, but it sort of feels that way to me. Thought you'd be interested....