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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2014, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: 9'6"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trout trekker View Post
Kim,

The best situation is if the shop just happens to have a loaner of the exact model(s) youíre interested in, that theyíll let you take fishing for a few days. Some do it for a nominal fee and then apply that fee to the rods purchase price if you buy one. Others, will just take your CC info as collateral in case you donít come back with the rod.

In lieu of that, try to mimic your usage as closely as possible.
" You don't want to tear up your own fly lines on the pavement " is the basic message I get when we go rod shopping around here. Yet, unless the shop can match the lines I must use on the rod Iím after, thatís exactly what Iím prepared to do. Iíd much rather test cast a few rods with one of the well used heads or specialty lines I use, then to blow $800.00 on a rod that wonít handle a $40.00 head or $90.00 line with the types of load I intend to put on them.

Iíve been at this for a while, so I have quite a few well used lines around.
Most fly shops around here ( 200 mile radius ) have only floating lines to try, primarily theyíll be WFís and all of a single model. They wonít have a single saltwater taper, bass bug taper, integrated head, shooting head system, multi-tip system, sink tip, full sinking or even a floating double taper. So I show up with the lines I intend to fish on the rods Iím there to try. The bonus, is that Iíll be using the very reel on the rod that Iíll be fishing on it, so I get the feeling for the whole outfit. Not how the rod feels with some lightweight - cast aluminum, two sizes to small reel model that shop has laying around in a drawer with a parking lot line on it.

If I intend the rod to be a wading rod, I donít spend the entire casting session standing in the parking lot, casting down at a target. I get down on my knees or butt and cast. I try to go to shops on breezy to windy days and cast the rods in every direction, because for my money, itís not whether Iíll be fishing the rod in the wind. Itís going to be windy, the only question is direction and velocity.
I bring test flies, that I know the shop wonít have safety issues with. For instance, even though Iíd like to try it with a Clouser, I bring a couple deceiverís with their hooks clipped at the rear of the shank, etc. I think we all have leaders left over from trips gone by that have seen better days, again I rig the outfit with my leaders.
Indoor pools are fine for water hauling, rolling sinking lines up, that sort of thing, but Iíd still get it out in the windÖeven if itís on the roof of the shop. Donít laugh, there used to be a shop out west that did just that. Tested out rods on the roof.

TT
Thanks for the advice. :-)

Kim

---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
What weight 9' rod are you using now, and what are you trying to improve by lengthening the rod?

The heavier the weight line you are using, the more noticeable it is when you lengthen the rod. This can be really noticeable when surf fishing in the wind - which is generally blowing into your face. Longer rods will also obviously have more wind resistance to overcome (especially into the wind) and will consequently require more energy to overcome.

So I would take whatever you are using now with you to compare against the longer rod using the same line on each that you intend to fish with.

If you are going to be blind casting for hours into the wind and surf, keep that in mind when comparing the two. It is not the same situation as wading the flats for bonefish and making 10 casts on a great day. I should have made that point more clearly in my last post.

The last rod I went to buy was going to be a 11 wt. However, the 11 wt rod I tried was not as powerful a casting rod as I expected, and I wound up buying a 12 wt rod for the 11 wt line I was buying the rod for.

In my opinion, most people shop backwards. They buy the rod, then try numerous lines to put on it and sometimes wind up wasting money on one or two lines at $90 a pop trying to find one to fit the rod. And when all is done, they often wind up with two rods using the same line when they were after two different line weight rods.

The numbers on the rods (and on the lines) don't mean a whole lot. And further, the line I use on a rod could easily be two line weights different from what someone else would use on that same rod. So no one can tell a stranger what line will work "best" for him on what rod either, and have it mean anything.

Sooo, as you will hear over and over again here, the best way to avoid being unhappy with a rod purchase is to cast it before you buy.

In short, the advantages to a longer rod are that you can pick up line off the surface at greater distances, mend easier, increase the stroke length at the rod tip, keep the line further away from your neck, and gain some on distance over that same line on a shorter rod with equal casting power (assuming that is even possible).

The disadvantage is that it may take more out of you than you have to give. And you may get more distance using a shorter rod with a heavier line or a shooting head.

Trouttreker, while it is certainly true that the caster determines his backcast trajectory, it's also true that the backcast trajectory determines, in large measure, the forward trajectory. This is especially true on long casts that have to land softly with a long leader fully extended. For me, this is easier to accomplish when standing in deep water with a longer rather than a shorter rod, so long as it is not a 10 wt or heavier.

But, that is not what the poster seems to be talking about; and, like always, he will have to try out different rods himself, and see what suits his own manner of casting and his physical shape. Since his fly shop has a casting pond, they obviously know this. Casting on his knees is a very good tip that he can easily do there, though I doubt they will go for anything but yarn on his leader.

Sorry, Kim, but that's what I've learned after 56 years of fly fishing - nothing.

Nobody knows what's best for me, and I don't know what's best for anybody else either. Hell, I don't even know what's best for me anymore. They keep changing things every year faster than I can learn. So don't worry about it, just go fishing with whatever you like.
I'm using a 9' 7wt Zpey scandic saltwater.
I looked at Scandinavian rod companies and found that many 7wt rods was in 9'6. That made me think if there were a specific reason for that which lead to my starting question :-)

The wind resistance, oh man don't get me started :-) somedays sidewind will blow my rod to to the side making tracking just about impossible :-)
Blind casting is the name of the day.

About choosing a rod. I don't know why but I'm just lousy at choosing the right rod for me. I have had so many 6wt and a few 7wt, but many for some reason don't fit my need. Impulse buying I guess. And that's even after test casting the rods. It felt good on the lawn, then on the water I need to use more force. Or at least I think so, and I'm not the strongest person walking this earth. However many mistakes could be avoided if I choose to go fishing when the wind is blowing to my left shoulder (right handed) cause if the wind is acting strangely and blow in all directions, I'm not going to have fun. I loose the feel with the line because it's blowing towards my body instead of away from it.

Appreciate all the advice.

Kim
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2014, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trout trekker View Post
Don't get caught up in a single specific rod length.
9í 6Ē is not some mystical length that will solve a casting deficiency or even provide you with the type of tool you're looking for. If 10 footers are in vogue and they have been at several points over the last thirty years, you can bet that rod companies will try to gobble up their share of available market. Once the demand slows, you'll see a corresponding drop of 10 foot models being offered in the following years..........................
Back around the year 2000, there were all sorts of 10 footers making the scene out here and in a couple of years, the classifieds were clogged with them and the bulletin boards were choked with guys complaining about joint problems. Much the same way that saltwater switch rod novices out here, just had to buy & try to fish those rods as single handers in the surf. Now those rods pop up in the classifieds daily.

The culprit with longer single hand rods wasnít the physical weight of the outfit nor poor casting mechanics, in every case. It was simply being on the wrong end of to long of a lever, fighting heavy fish, working with Hi D lines, rolling heads up and out of the water, hundreds of water hauls a day, in deep turbid water for too long a period of time. Now weíre being sold on 10 footers again. With the promise that since theyíre able to make them lighter and lighter ( stiffer and stiffer too, which makes for one unforgiving lever ), the issue of wear and tear on the joints wonít resurface. Yet, slowly but surely weíre starting to see some of the old joint problem threads resurface throughout the web.

My point, a given rod length is not a guarantee of performance. Over the years, some have nailed a taper to a specific length while others would have been better off following their own drummers. Why not a 9í 7Ē - 7 wt or a 8í 10Ē six weight. Did Echo nail a taper matched with a given length with their Edge 84ís ( 8í 4Ē ) rods or is their one model in the line up thatís the clear winner and the rest just there to round out the line up and to lend credence to the concept?

TT
BUT. the technology of late '90's and 2000 compared to todays technology, you really can't say that.
I do agree that not just anyone can design a 10' rod. But face it, CAD, nano technology and a little R&D makes it much easier to build one than it did 15 years ago, which is a lifetime in fly rod technology. I think advances are made everyday in certain lengths and tapers.
Anyway, what's so special about a 7wt. rod, which is in my opinion is a bast@rd child. If it were a popular rod size, we would see Cabelas, Bass Pro and others carry it.
Just thinking out loud anyway.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2014, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
BUT. the technology of late '90's and 2000 compared to todays technology, you really can't say that. I do agree that not just anyone can design a 10' rod. But face it, CAD, nano technology and a little R&D makes it much easier to build one than it did 15 years ago, which is a lifetime in fly rod technology. I think advances are made everyday in certain lengths and tapers.

Anyway, what's so special about a 7wt. rod, which is in my opinion is a bast@rd child. If it were a popular rod size, we would see Cabelas, Bass Pro and others carry it.
Just thinking out loud anyway.
Actually I can say that and now you can too.
Let me help you understand it.

Technology didn’t change the fact that a 10 foot rod is still a 10 foot rod, or that extending the length of a lever which we try to support with a single hand adds to physical fatigue and as we extend that lever, it places greater load on the joints. Making the rod lighter, doesn’t make the fly line lighter, it doesn’t reduce the density of a sinking fly line, it doesn’t make split shot lighter, it doesn’t make our flies less wind resistant, it doesn’t make bead heads weigh less, lead wraps weigh less, a fish weigh less, it won’t make the resistance of the line in water during a roll cast or a water haul less. All that’s accomplished by making a 10 foot fly rod lighter is that the lever itself is lighter. Plus a ten footer, subjects one more foot of rod to the continual effects of air or wind resistance on every cast, over that of a nine footer.
Going a step further, we see successive generations of the these rods have become stiffer, that’s more noticeable in the higher weight rods. Doing that took the buffering or shock absorbing qualities out of the rod.

The popularity of longer rods has come and gone several times, in all forms of material. The rods of the millennium were lighter than those that preceded them, yet a ten footer was still a ten footer.

The real question is, why get hung up on a specific length?
If rod companies were shooting for the best taper in a longer rod for a given line weight with all of their differing and proprietary lay ups and composites, they wouldn’t all be coming up with the exact same length of rods. They’re just filling a fascination that some anglers have for a nice round number, rather than actually trying to be ground breakers and coming up with the best taper they can. If it’s technology you’re motivated by, go back to your favorite rod companies and push them to come up with something better, not just something new, in predetermined lengths to add to their product line in order to chase a fad.

As to the seven weight, I’m glad you understood my point. It appears that 9 for 7’s at least for Cabela’s aren’t fast enough sellers to find a place in their wide range of house branded rods and they defer those sales to their other rods suppliers. If you get out of trout country much, you might find that sevens in various lengths are a more common weight and that your comments about them, probably could be carried over to three weights or elevens. It’s simply depends on how narrow ones perspective is.

Just trying to help, TT

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
Trouttreker, while it is certainly true that the caster determines his backcast trajectory, it's also true that the backcast trajectory determines, in large measure, the forward trajectory. This is especially true on long casts that have to land softly with a long leader fully extended. For me, this is easier to accomplish when standing in deep water with a longer rather than a shorter rod, so long as it is not a 10 wt or heavier.
Re: " Why, because it wasn’t bought for it's mending ability, nor it’s ability to carry a back cast high from a float tube ( back cast’s go where you direct them ).

To put my comment back into the context of how it was written.

A good many float tubers buy longer rods to correct for a misdiagnosed problem.
In the battle between effective body angle for flipper provided propulsion in concert with the slouched lawn chair posture that so many float tube designs encourage the users to take especially as the day wears on. Couple that with some float tube seat back and backrest designs that place constraints on the range of motion of the anglers shoulder and torso. You’ll note that many float tubers slap the water on the back cast. Often they interpret that as being to low to the water, even though they are holding a nine foot tall rod in their hand, they perceive the problem is one of too short a rod.

The real problem is not how low they are sitting in the water or that their rod is just twelve inches to short. Take the same guy out and have him wade deep. Because he’s now standing upright with no constraints on his range of motion, the problem will usually not surface, simply because his posture is in an effective casting stance.
More often than not, it’s the reclined slouching position of the angler in some float tube designs that’s causing the water strike on the back cast and upward stall on the forward cast.
Adding a ten foot rod, simply gets the end of the back cast up a bit, with fewer water strikes, but it would be considerably cheaper for them to simply remember to sit up and employ their normal stroke with the rod they already own or compare float tubes with greater scrutiny before buying one.

Also, since float tubing is often an open water pursuit that is fluid, with few stationary points to judge ones distance accurately. The added distance some guys perceive they're getting with a new longer rod, in reality wouldn't be nearly as long as many think, nor as long as their best casts with their traditional length rods while wading.

Thanks for considering my true intent.
TT

Last edited by trout trekker; 04-19-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: 9'6"?

Quote:
I'm using a 9' 7wt Zpey scandic saltwater.
I looked at Scandinavian rod companies and found that many 7wt rods was in 9'6.
That indicates to me that they must be a popular length with many different ones to try out. 7 weight rods are not that heavy unless you have injuries or do not have your casting down very well. I would certainly try a few out that are popular in Denmark against what you are using.

Another thing I would do without question, if I lived in Denmark, would be to go see Lasse Karlsson for some tips/instruction/ and BS session. He is a good guy with a great sense of humor and is a fanatic fly fisherman/instructor/competitive caster known throughout Europe. You can do a search for his website. He will likely have a whole lot of rods that he uses for the sea trout over there. If anyone can steer you in the right direction, he can.

I see injuries every spring when my trout fishing friends come down here to fish for tarpon - so many, that I made a video of exercises that they should be doing for two months before showing up. You simply cannot expect to cast your last 5 wt in September, watch football and hockey all winter, then start off with an 11 or 12 wt. the following May without some problems. And most of these guys are approaching 70.

Even I do isometric exercises before tarpon season in addtion to the arm and wrist intensive workout I get working. And I fish 10 - 12 wts every month of the year besides. Just not so intensively as when tarpon fishing.

One rod I would really love to try out would be a 10' 7 wt TCX. I see them on ebay, but I can't afford to spend $600 without casting one first. Too chicken.

Quote:
How would you judge a rod you were interested in buying?
For fish such as I would want the above rod for (small salt-water fish) it would be how easily it casts distance primarily. I want my wrist to "mush out" before the rod "mushes out", (but not by a whole lot) and I want to be able to feel the line early in the casting stroke - no whimpy soft tip that delays the start of the line moving and "wastes" the early part of the stroke. I like the ability to be able to fish a long line, and have caught many species at a distance that I could never have gotten closer to - both wading and from boats.

For large fish, I like rods that have a reputation for dead lifting and will sacrifice some casting performance or when possible "over-rod" (same as "underline" ) to improve the casting.

But everyone has his own criteria.

Good luck,
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