k9mark
Well-known member
Who's making rods for Cabelas, Bass Pro, LL Bean, etc al?
a burning question on everyone's mind
- Thread starter k9mark
- Start date
silver creek
Well-known member
Depending on the price of the rod, I would guess a Korean rod factory for the more expensive ones and a Chinese factory for the low end rods.
ia_trouter
Senior Member
I wouldn't be surprised at all if 95% or more of them are Chinese. But there is some good news IMO. They sell a ton of them and it is VERY easy to get a review of what you are buying. If that fails you can still cast it and return it for the cost of return postage if you don't like it. That's about as good as it is going to get if you take a chance and go cheap.
Not sure where my LL Bean Streamlight 13' eight weight was made but it works just fine 
They cast nicely and will handle a 44 pound fish, I approve this image.
They cast nicely and will handle a 44 pound fish, I approve this image.
---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------
Sorry Mark, that may have been over the top a little but I wanted to nip the bud if anyone was going to say that LL Bean weren't good rods. It is true though that I am very happy with the rod.
ia_trouter
Senior Member
See above post. Looks like one of those "Internet Reviews" I was referring too.
LL Bean never sold me any junk and they would take it back with an apology if they ever do. Actually my burning questions is why don't the fish always bite when I take a day of vacation.
LL Bean never sold me any junk and they would take it back with an apology if they ever do. Actually my burning questions is why don't the fish always bite when I take a day of vacation.
cab
Well-known member
Note that there's no rod in the photo, but the ballcap sports an iconic logo.....[poke]
CAB
CAB
k9mark
Well-known member
Not sure where my LL Bean Streamlight 13' eight weight was made but it works just fine
They cast nicely and will handle a 44 pound fish, I approve this image.
---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------
Sorry Mark, that may have been over the top a little but I wanted to nip the bud if anyone was going to say that LL Bean weren't good rods. It is true though that I am very happy with the rod.
44 pounds, that's it? pfffft, :icon_razz: :thumbsup:
GrtLksMarlin
Well-known member
fredaevans
Well-known member
Early, very early in the day (0200) but we have a 'Candidate for Post of the Day.'
Well done Sir, Well Done.
Fred
I think Cabelas makes deals with the major manufacturers to make and label a product that will sell in volume with the cabelas label with a few less features than that said manufacturers main label.
sweetandsalt
Well-known member
K9, There was a time not so long ago where a company like LL Bean would contract with a quality company willing to do private label work like G.Loomis. I have a great circa 2000, handsomely finished, green painted LL Bean rod that is a truly high end rod. Not so much anymore. I am reproducing from another recent thread information gleaned from a major brand executive.
I recently enjoyed an e-mail exchange with an executive of a US based rod brand whose products are made in Korea. He mentioned he had just returned from the mega fishing show in China...by many multiples the largest in the world. He quoted a Commerce Dept. report on imports that specifies rods - 92% of US imported rods are of Chinese mfg., 4% Korea, 4% Mexico and 2% Taiwan. Chinese rod and reel makers, largely spinning and convectional tackle but fly gear too set up booths displaying their wares and Western retailers select mass produced product to be emblazoned with their logo and color. Yes, there are importers who contract with one of these factories to do a custom run of their supplied design but we are talking about the Cabelas, WW Sportsman, LL Beans of the market place here (& they are the more reputable ones). These mass production factories are focused on volume and price point not fine craftsmanship and the relatively small runs of fly rods are few and far between compared to more popular conventional tackle. According to my reputable source (you would all be familiar with and respect his brand), these factories are always striving to make their offerings more attractive but may not even use the same mandrels or graphite type from one production run to the next rendering the action and performance of a given named model way too variable for his standards, thus he uses a dedicated Korean shop right across the Yellow Sea from these large Chinese facilities for his rods.
As is increasingly frequent we find inquiries about the quality of modest priced big box store house brands her in our Forum. They are not bad necessarily and lots of fish get themselves caught by Cabelas wielding anglers. Cabelas and the others also sell Sage, Winston or whatever US rods too so one can buy a fine outfit through them. I would prefer to not employ my in person adjectives to the construction and performance qualities of most re-branded, mass produced imported rods but I will say that in my view $129.99 is quite overpriced while the Sage on the next page for $799.99 is underpriced.
I recently enjoyed an e-mail exchange with an executive of a US based rod brand whose products are made in Korea. He mentioned he had just returned from the mega fishing show in China...by many multiples the largest in the world. He quoted a Commerce Dept. report on imports that specifies rods - 92% of US imported rods are of Chinese mfg., 4% Korea, 4% Mexico and 2% Taiwan. Chinese rod and reel makers, largely spinning and convectional tackle but fly gear too set up booths displaying their wares and Western retailers select mass produced product to be emblazoned with their logo and color. Yes, there are importers who contract with one of these factories to do a custom run of their supplied design but we are talking about the Cabelas, WW Sportsman, LL Beans of the market place here (& they are the more reputable ones). These mass production factories are focused on volume and price point not fine craftsmanship and the relatively small runs of fly rods are few and far between compared to more popular conventional tackle. According to my reputable source (you would all be familiar with and respect his brand), these factories are always striving to make their offerings more attractive but may not even use the same mandrels or graphite type from one production run to the next rendering the action and performance of a given named model way too variable for his standards, thus he uses a dedicated Korean shop right across the Yellow Sea from these large Chinese facilities for his rods.
As is increasingly frequent we find inquiries about the quality of modest priced big box store house brands her in our Forum. They are not bad necessarily and lots of fish get themselves caught by Cabelas wielding anglers. Cabelas and the others also sell Sage, Winston or whatever US rods too so one can buy a fine outfit through them. I would prefer to not employ my in person adjectives to the construction and performance qualities of most re-branded, mass produced imported rods but I will say that in my view $129.99 is quite overpriced while the Sage on the next page for $799.99 is underpriced.
burk48237
Well-known member
Cabelas does offer American made rods. I can say that the use to be produced by Diamondback and St Croix. I do not know whose producing them now. Loomis years ago made rods for a bunch of retailers. They use to sell blanks to Winston even. But I haven't heard much buzz about that in the last couple of years. I suspect the next thing we'll see from the big boxes is co-branded private label. Cabelas is already doing it with Lamson (marketing an exclusive Cabelas brand reel built by Lamson). They almost did the same thing when they bought the entire production of Sage XP rods a couple of years ago.
Is suspect we'll see Cabelas, Field and Stream or Bass Pro Rods by Loomis or St Croix at some point. But this presents a huge conundrum for the manufacturers as it devalues their in line product. Lamson appears to have already abandoned the independent fly shop market in the MW. This is a tough business to make real money in, and fewer companies are profitable than we know.
As far as the Chinese rods, at this point I will say I haven't seen any that equal the quality of American or Korean product. Wether it's the cork, the wrappings or the components, they always seem to fall short. And I agree with Sweet and Salt in that they in some ways are over priced (All of the companies make a significantly higher margin on Chinese product). In a lot of ways we are becoming more and more like the conventional market, especially in reels, where very little actual development and design takes place. On the conventional side most companies just go to China, look at the latest blanks and give the specs they want to the Chinese company that's doing a run of their competitors product a week later. This is the case already with almost all of the sub $150 fly reels on the market currently.
OTOH, many of the $100-150 Chinese rods are better values than the $250 fly rods of 10 years ago and certainly a boon for entry level fisherman. And I would rather see people get into the sport and not give up because of poor gear than see the market guide because only Hedge Fund Managers and ex Senate Majority Leaders can afford the gear.
Is suspect we'll see Cabelas, Field and Stream or Bass Pro Rods by Loomis or St Croix at some point. But this presents a huge conundrum for the manufacturers as it devalues their in line product. Lamson appears to have already abandoned the independent fly shop market in the MW. This is a tough business to make real money in, and fewer companies are profitable than we know.
As far as the Chinese rods, at this point I will say I haven't seen any that equal the quality of American or Korean product. Wether it's the cork, the wrappings or the components, they always seem to fall short. And I agree with Sweet and Salt in that they in some ways are over priced (All of the companies make a significantly higher margin on Chinese product). In a lot of ways we are becoming more and more like the conventional market, especially in reels, where very little actual development and design takes place. On the conventional side most companies just go to China, look at the latest blanks and give the specs they want to the Chinese company that's doing a run of their competitors product a week later. This is the case already with almost all of the sub $150 fly reels on the market currently.
OTOH, many of the $100-150 Chinese rods are better values than the $250 fly rods of 10 years ago and certainly a boon for entry level fisherman. And I would rather see people get into the sport and not give up because of poor gear than see the market guide because only Hedge Fund Managers and ex Senate Majority Leaders can afford the gear.
Based on the 2 prior posts by Richard & Burk I am by no means qualified to comment. My earlier post was a knee jerk reaction to another offshore rod topic and I apologize once more for that. The LL Bean rod I have was rumored to be a Loop blank but I am not sure. I moved beyond the where is it made thing at some point and really can't say when that happened. As some of you know I don't rush to buy products from Asia but there are exceptions either made by choice or simply because that is the only source for certain items these days.
For folks who are firmly opposed to the China Syndrome I suggest you consider forgetting about your unconditional warranties and shop for quality pre owned vintage rods if the cost of a new Sage puts you off. I do it, I don't follow the herd when it comes to seeking the latest rod technology. Maybe I am missing something and maybe I'm not. What I don't worry over when buying a 20 - 35 year old Orvis or Hardy rod is where they were made. I am in some ways an anomaly because vintage suits me just fine. This is not to say that I don't have my eye on a new Sage One 14 foot 9 weight and one of those Evoke reels in size 9/10 for it. Every so often I have to see what the new stuff acts like
When in doubt buy vintage,
Ard
For folks who are firmly opposed to the China Syndrome I suggest you consider forgetting about your unconditional warranties and shop for quality pre owned vintage rods if the cost of a new Sage puts you off. I do it, I don't follow the herd when it comes to seeking the latest rod technology. Maybe I am missing something and maybe I'm not. What I don't worry over when buying a 20 - 35 year old Orvis or Hardy rod is where they were made. I am in some ways an anomaly because vintage suits me just fine. This is not to say that I don't have my eye on a new Sage One 14 foot 9 weight and one of those Evoke reels in size 9/10 for it. Every so often I have to see what the new stuff acts like
When in doubt buy vintage,
Ard
coolhand
Well-known member
Really? My burning question is... Why does anyone, give credence to the mass marketer, retailer (i.e. Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc.), and their respective private label offerings? It is all about leveraging more profit to the retailer, not about quality and value to the customer/end user. These products are not the "good deal" that they appear to be.
The rods are most likely Chinese in origin, a totalitarian country that exploits it's abundant cheap labor pool to produce cheap goods for the materialistic American consumer. These big box retailers use legitimate manufacturer's to get people in the door, then entice and push consumers to purchase their PL "****" that they claim is as "good" as the legit products at "cheaper prices". Many fall for it, including the legit manufacturers.
Support the legitimate fly fishing companies that make most of their goods in the USA, and support your local, independent, fly fishing retailer. Those companies and folks are in the business for right reasons, love of the sport/lifestyle of fly fishing, hopefully carving out a "living" while doing it. The big box corporate stores, only care about profit and stock price, not a damn bit about the product or the sport of fly fishing.
The rods are most likely Chinese in origin, a totalitarian country that exploits it's abundant cheap labor pool to produce cheap goods for the materialistic American consumer. These big box retailers use legitimate manufacturer's to get people in the door, then entice and push consumers to purchase their PL "****" that they claim is as "good" as the legit products at "cheaper prices". Many fall for it, including the legit manufacturers.
Support the legitimate fly fishing companies that make most of their goods in the USA, and support your local, independent, fly fishing retailer. Those companies and folks are in the business for right reasons, love of the sport/lifestyle of fly fishing, hopefully carving out a "living" while doing it. The big box corporate stores, only care about profit and stock price, not a damn bit about the product or the sport of fly fishing.
spm
Well-known member
ia_trouter
Senior Member
Back when the truck was new I made sure the dealer threw in a lifetime supply of those caps. The thing is that after I saw that photo I don't remember wearing the hat fishing again. That was the largest salmon I've caught here, I've been in the 30's often but that was one like I would see but not catch. The fact that I needed a shave and had on that hat will haunt me every time I see the picture.
The rod was in the rack on the boat I still use it but honestly prefer the old Hardy so it doesn't get too much use. When I see the dead fish that too haunts me. That was back in the glory days before the runs began to shrink. Would he have survived and spawned, heck I can't answer that but I know that I killed him and there was no tomorrow after that. I don't believe I'll ever kill another king during the rest of my days. There are still a couple million sockeye that come up one of the rivers and we go there to get fish for food. I let all the others go here close to home now.
By the way that truck still has new truck smell It just passed 70K a while back.
The rod was in the rack on the boat
I still use it but honestly prefer the old Hardy so it doesn't get too much use. When I see the dead fish that too haunts me. That was back in the glory days before the runs began to shrink. Would he have survived and spawned, heck I can't answer that but I know that I killed him and there was no tomorrow after that. I don't believe I'll ever kill another king during the rest of my days. There are still a couple million sockeye that come up one of the rivers and we go there to get fish for food. I let all the others go here close to home now.By the way that truck still has new truck smell
It just passed 70K a while back.
sweetandsalt
Well-known member
Let me add that I have never been to the giant Chinese Tackle Show...I have drawn comments from others' experiences there. I have never worked for Cabelas. Nor am I anti-anybody based on Nationalism, race, religion, etc. and I will choose not to engage in the Ford-Chevy thing either.
I think fly fishing equipment and sourcing ahs changed very quickly. The observations that Loomis and Diamondback did private label work for other is in the past. G.Loomis, to my knowledge, is not making blanks or rods for other brands any longer though they did do some great work for LL Bean and, famously, for Winston. Diamondback long ago made the Leonard Golden Shadow but is itself out of business after acquisition by a brand that tried to build Diamonbacks in China...well that didn't work out.
I have written before that "off-shore sourcing" of fly rods is not a uniform phenomenon. Some Korean rod shops do very fine work based on the specifications of Western rod designers and companies. America does not have a monopoly and skilled craftsmanship. Korea is where some of our best fabricated mid-priced rods come from today. As generality, the Chinese rods are not built in shops but large mass production factories. Without laborious detail, the mass producers are oriented toward volume, rapidity of production and maximum profit, not careful craftsmanship. So internal carbon fibers hidden beneath glossy paint are ill aligned and may have gaps in the composite impacting long term reliability and short term performance.
Ard is right on, if you can not afford a high end US built rod, there are so many previously owned ones for sale at low prices. Buy one of them.
I think fly fishing equipment and sourcing ahs changed very quickly. The observations that Loomis and Diamondback did private label work for other is in the past. G.Loomis, to my knowledge, is not making blanks or rods for other brands any longer though they did do some great work for LL Bean and, famously, for Winston. Diamondback long ago made the Leonard Golden Shadow but is itself out of business after acquisition by a brand that tried to build Diamonbacks in China...well that didn't work out.
I have written before that "off-shore sourcing" of fly rods is not a uniform phenomenon. Some Korean rod shops do very fine work based on the specifications of Western rod designers and companies. America does not have a monopoly and skilled craftsmanship. Korea is where some of our best fabricated mid-priced rods come from today. As generality, the Chinese rods are not built in shops but large mass production factories. Without laborious detail, the mass producers are oriented toward volume, rapidity of production and maximum profit, not careful craftsmanship. So internal carbon fibers hidden beneath glossy paint are ill aligned and may have gaps in the composite impacting long term reliability and short term performance.
Ard is right on, if you can not afford a high end US built rod, there are so many previously owned ones for sale at low prices. Buy one of them.
ia_trouter
Senior Member
:shocking:
I still can't believe I fish with Chevy Boy though. :shocking: Ard's truck is very nice but that's irrelevant.
Everybody on this thread is smiling S&S. Just a little friendly banter.
I still can't believe I fish with Chevy Boy though. :shocking: Ard's truck is very nice but that's irrelevant.