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Old 05-08-2015, 09:24 AM
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Default Over Weighting Fly Line

With the newer fast action rods, Sage Response and St. Croix Legend Elite I have been advised to go with a one up line weight. For example, a five weight line for a four weight rod or use one of the plus lines ie. Rio Grand or SA Mastery GPX. Any validity to this suggestion or should I just use a line that is indicated, a four weight line for a four weight rod? Help clarifying my confusion would be most appreciated. Why buy a four weight rod if it is meant for a five weight line?
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:34 AM
 
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Why indeed. Buy a rod with the rod action that fits you casted with the stated line rating. Why buy a fast action rod if you need to use a heavier line to change the stroke length and casting timing to match what is right for you?

There is a lot of information in the threads that are pinned above your question. Read this to understand the metrics of a fly rod:

"What overlining does is slow the timing of a given casting length.

However, it does nothing about the fly rod's action. For example, a fly fisher may want a slow action rod with a softer tip because it protects delicate tippets better. But overlining a fast action rod does nothing to change the stiffness of the rod tip or anything to change the overall rod flex so that it bends more easily to protect tippets. Once the cast is made, you have the stiffer rod you didn't want in the first place.

So if a person wants to slow the timing of a faster action rod to his/her casting stroke; they have purchased the wrong rod. What this really means is that the caster is unable or unwilling to adapt his stroke mechanics to the fly rod.

Yes, you can sometimes pound a square peg into a round hole by using a bigger hammer than you would normally need; but wouldn't it be easier to use the correct hammer and a round peg that fit. Overlining is kind of like using a square peg (the faster rod) with a larger hammer (the heavier line)."


For a greater understanding read the pinned post:

Fly rod line rating, power, and action - an explanation.
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Old 05-08-2015, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
Why indeed. Buy a rod with the rod action that fits you casted with the stated line rating. Why buy a fast action rod if you need to use a heavier line to change the stroke length and casting timing to match what is right for you?

There is a lot of information in the threads that are pinned above your question. Read this to understand the metrics of a fly rod:

"What overlining does is slow the timing of a given casting length.

However, it does nothing about the fly rod's action. For example, a fly fisher may want a slow action rod with a softer tip because it protects delicate tippets better. But overlining a fast action rod does nothing to change the stiffness of the rod tip or anything to change the overall rod flex so that it bends more easily to protect tippets. Once the cast is made, you have the stiffer rod you didn't want in the first place.

So if a person wants to slow the timing of a faster action rod to his/her casting stroke; they have purchased the wrong rod. What this really means is that the caster is unable or unwilling to adapt his stroke mechanics to the fly rod.

Yes, you can sometimes pound a square peg into a round hole by using a bigger hammer than you would normally need; but wouldn't it be easier to use the correct hammer and a round peg that fit. Overlining is kind of like using a square peg (the faster rod) with a larger hammer (the heavier line)."


For a greater understanding read the pinned post:

Fly rod line rating, power, and action - an explanation.
THAT is a wonderful post on overlining!!
Often I wonder if we sometimes obsess over casting to the exclusion of the catching part. An old fisherman I know opened my eyes with the comment "yea, that rod sure casts great, but how does it fish?" For me, at that moment, the light went on.
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Just keep in mind that if you're looking at a rod rated to perform best with 30' (the belly) of the line out from the tip and you're casting with only 15' out you would need a heavier line. However if you're casting with that whole head out and you find it's easier, you probably have a timing problem.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

My opinion is that too many rods are just too stiff to act as fishing rods. To get feeling you overline them. But the number in the rod is just a guideline. The tester thinks it's a 7wt, the next guy may think it's a 6wt and the third guy may think it's a 8wt. The weight of the line is the key to make the rod work.
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Old 05-09-2015, 11:04 AM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Maybe I'm way off base, but I over line some of my faster rods for casting feel and enjoy their firmness for mending, line control and setting the hook.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:09 PM
 
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Maybe I'm way off base, but I over line some of my faster rods for casting feel and enjoy their firmness for mending, line control and setting the hook.
You are not off base if want a 5 weight rod and puposely buy a 4 wt model of fast rod and overline it with a 5 wt line, but you are off base if you bought the rod as 5 wt and now fish it with a 6 wt line for "for mending, line control and setting the hook."

Then the rod is NOT performing the function you bought it to perform. In that case, if you really want to fish with a rod that matches the 5 wt line, you will need to buy another rod or "make do."
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
You are not off base if want a 5 weight rod and puposely buy a 4 wt model of fast rod and overline it with a 5 wt line, but you are off base if you bought the rod as 5 wt and now fish it with a 6 wt line for "for mending, line control and setting the hook."

Then the rod is NOT performing the function you bought it to perform. In that case, if you really want to fish with a rod that matches the 5 wt line, you will need to buy another rod or "make do."
Lol...well, I guess I'm making do...but since I've found the line rod combination that works for me functionally and aesthetically it must be ok.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Welcome aboard, Lots of info and lots of opinions on this web site that is what makes it great!

On to your question: Is there any merit in the statement that fast rods need to be over lined.

I know when I bought a new 6wt recently the sales person told me the same thing "We have found that this rod casts best when over lining it one line weight." I personally have not found that to be true. I bought this rod and after trying a multitude of different lines I even found a particular line that is rated a 5wt that casts wonderfully even though it is under lining it (weird huh?). However, I fish it mostly with a DT6 or a front loaded WF6. Statements like what you heard are subjective and unique to that persons casting style. If your casting style is similar then the comment may have merit and then again it may not.

Line weights are a designator to refer to in order to make it easier to buy a line and rod rather than specifying the weight of the line at 30' in grains. For example a manufacturer instead of saying we recommend a WF line at 140 grains just specifies the rod is a 5wt. It is much easier to differentiate rods and to choose a line for it that way.

When it comes to lines and I will use RIO as an example. In the RIO lines their 5wt DT in the Mainstream line is 140 grains at 30' but their InTouch Trout LT 5wt DT weighs 145 grains at 30' not only that but the line profile is very different so where the weight of the line in relationship to the first 30' of line is different. Then RIOs Grand line is touted as being a full line weight heavier than standard lines so I assume around 160 grains on a 5wt line and most of the weight is in the first 14' of the line. All three lines are sold as a 5wt line and all three lines have a different grain weight and a different line profile.

If you want more confusion a great article to read is
AFTM Table

Rod ratings and line ratings are subjective given the multitude of line profiles and weights out in the market today. Try before you buy and don't be afraid to experiment.

Good luck with your new rod and let us know how it works out for you.

Tim C.
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Old 05-09-2015, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Over Weighting Fly Line

Perhaps it should be put in this perspective:
The proper line for a rod is the one which performs best at the distance being fished by a good caster.

One particular rod might work best with a 7 wt rod at 60 feet, an 8 wt at 45 feet and a 9 at 30 feet.

HOWEVER, if you are using a heavier line to compensate for your casting faults, you're going to be using it as a crutch and it's going to hinder your honing your casting skills.

Such as you are trying to carry water in a leaky bucket.
1. You can make twice as many trips to the well.
2. You cam make a yoke across your back and balance a rock on it to keep you in balance.
3. Or, you can fix the bucket.

Too stiff a rod is like casting with a broomstic.
Too light a rod is like casting with a hoola hoop.
With a line a little too light, you can compensate by keeping a tight loop, increasing you line speed with a little faster (not more) wrist movement and a little faster (wrist movement) of the line hand.
With a line too heavy you usually end up using more brute force.
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