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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2012, 04:43 PM
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I'm in as long as there aren't any deadlines around Christmas, got the holiday and a wedding meaning that travel and such will be absolutely nuts. Those and summer deadlines are the ones that trip me up, too mobile giving my living situation and study travels...
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaybo41 View Post
Sorry about that Liphookedau, didn't meant to purposely exclude or offend any of our non US/North American members. My previous comment about postage assumes US members which clearly should be revisited. There should be a precedent for folks from other countries because I'd hate to exclude anyone. Sounds like you have a pretty good system worked out from past swaps that should be taken into consideration.
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That's Fine,I can invisage The work involved,however as stated sharing it would distribute The Work Load also I've pointed out it would be a costly exercise for me to run them from over here.
As stated Deadlines will be of paramount importance,I even was late with one as I hadn't realised The Arrival Date.
My main problem is I just want to find a better way to pay for my returns as Sending Cash these days is asking for trouble.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

As a person that was late for at least two swaps I would like to say that the deadline is the deadline, period.

As for containers, I don't see how there can be just one approved container, An altoids can may be fine for midges, nymphs, and small dries, but it's getting small for buggers and hoppers, too small for a general steamer swap, and way to small for a large streamer (ie bass, pike, muskie, striper, etc) swap.


I've been running our local swaps and we have a hard rule on the deadline. If someone can make it they should let it be known before the deadline.

As for shipping , you put the container is a PADDED envelope with your address on it, pay for shipping on that package, then you stuff all of that inside another PADDED envelope with the swap master's address on it then pay for shipping that. Easy.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

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Originally Posted by mudbug View Post
As for containers, I don't see how there can be just one approved container, An altoids can may be fine for midges, nymphs, and small dries, but it's getting small for buggers and hoppers, too small for a general steamer swap, and way to small for a large streamer (ie bass, pike, muskie, striper, etc) swap.
Please don't fear, there isn't going to be an 'approved container' I hope this doesn't seem that I am trying to complicate the swaps. I'm just looking to get them going and going smoothly.

We'll get a nymph swap going in October and then go from there. That would have the flies mailed and distributed before Thanksgiving.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

I like the beginner/advanced idea. Or at least having some level of 'involvement' on a fly pattern. If not beginner or advanced, maybe simple/intermediate/complex?
The swap I was involved in was cool, but some patterns obviously took a lot of time and energy; while others were simply a chunk of foam on a hook (ie no time invested at all, the simplest fly available). I kind of felt like I had traded away some really nice flies for a handful that were just really basic. Most were great, but it was obvious that some people just want to crank out something easy and get something nice in return.

I would try a swap again, but I would like to know that the 'level' of flies that I am sending out is that which is being returned in terms of quality and intricacy.
TB

---------- Post added at 07:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------

PS, sorry if that sounds snooty... And it is really not about beginner or advanced (only tying for 15 months here). But really about level of involvement in the particular pattern.

For example, imagine being in a streamer swap (I was not). If you made a box of beautiful deer hair headed sculpins; would you really want to receive a wooly bugger in return?

If you tied a bunch of intricate stimulators up, would you like to receive a griffiths gnat in return?

Nothing inherently wrong with simple ties (they are popular for good reasons!), but there is a level of material investment and time spent on good flies.
Would you want to trade the effort in producing copper johns for the effort of producing San Juans or eggs? probably not.

That said, it was great seeing other people's flies and ideas that are working elsewhere. I would do it again, I just hope people bring their 'A game' to the swaps in terms of deadlines, quality, and creativity!

PPS, thanks to Ard for spearing the Medusa in the head, ie trying to reorganize a good thing!
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbblom View Post
I like the beginner/advanced idea. Or at least having some level of 'involvement' on a fly pattern. If not beginner or advanced, maybe simple/intermediate/complex?
The swap I was involved in was cool, but some patterns obviously took a lot of time and energy; while others were simply a chunk of foam on a hook (ie no time invested at all, the simplest fly available). I kind of felt like I had traded away some really nice flies for a handful that were just really basic. Most were great, but it was obvious that some people just want to crank out something easy and get something nice in return.

I would try a swap again, but I would like to know that the 'level' of flies that I am sending out is that which is being returned in terms of quality and intricacy.
TB

---------- Post added at 07:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------

PS, sorry if that sounds snooty... And it is really not about beginner or advanced (only tying for 15 months here). But really about level of involvement in the particular pattern.

For example, imagine being in a streamer swap (I was not). If you made a box of beautiful deer hair headed sculpins; would you really want to receive a wooly bugger in return?

If you tied a bunch of intricate stimulators up, would you like to receive a griffiths gnat in return?

Nothing inherently wrong with simple ties (they are popular for good reasons!), but there is a level of material investment and time spent on good flies.
Would you want to trade the effort in producing copper johns for the effort of producing San Juans or eggs? probably not.

That said, it was great seeing other people's flies and ideas that are working elsewhere. I would do it again, I just hope people bring their 'A game' to the swaps in terms of deadlines, quality, and creativity!

PPS, thanks to Ard for spearing the Medusa in the head, ie trying to reorganize a good thing!

I don't mean this in a bad way but I think that maybe you should not join the swaps.

There is NO WAY to really regulate what you want, AND I think in most cases is goes against the idea of what people are being asked to do in swaps here.

For instance, let's say we have a "Favorite Spring Nymph" swap. Someone may tie an intricate Woven Golden Stone nymph, and I may tie a simple Hare's Ear.

So who didn't get an even swap?

Is it the guy that spent a lot of time on the beautiful woven nymph? He certainly spent more time per fly than me.

What if I told you we don't have golden stones here in AZ and that beautiful fly would likely never get used? Most certainly a Hare's Ear can be used anywhere there are fish, so did I get short changed because I got a fly I can't use?

What if there is a lesson to be learned in the simple fly.

I sent in a very simple foam ant to one of the last swaps here. Was it as beautiful as that epoxy body ant? Nope, but I would put it up against any ant pattern in terms of catching fish effectively.

Maybe the lesson there is that the dozen foam ants you can tie up quickly the night before a trip is better than the ants you never tied because you didn't have time.

Quick to tie, effective, cheap flies have a place and are often called "Guide Flies" and if someone get's a fly like that in a swap, uses it to catch fish, then learns how to tie it, then that is a good thing.

The truth is that if you are using swaps to fill your fly box you are doing it wrong. For me it is more about improving my skill and the curiosity of seeing what others tie.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

I hear exactly what you are saying. But try not to take offense...

Simple is good, guide ties are great. But that does not make me want to invest a lot of time in making great flies to send out to get 30 second flies back.

"maybe you should not join the swaps" Dude, a bit harsh perhaps?
I'll admit, that's what I thought when I realized what I had traded away!

I was just offering some constructive criticism. If I knew I was joining a 'simple guide fly' swap I would eagerly tie up some simple and effective goodies and swap them. Just saying, some people spend 1 hour tying a dozen of very simple (and good and effective) flies, while others put in much more effort. There should be some level of expectation I believe. I prefer to show the world my best work, not some 20 second dubbing ant, regardless of how well they work. Dubbing ants should be traded for equally simple flies, not complex hoppers that required a lot more effort and material.

"The truth is that if you are using swaps to fill your fly box you are doing it wrong." yeah, you kind of missed the point!
It would take a lifetime of waiting to fill up a single fly box from these swaps...

A few fly swaps would hardly fill my boxes, and I have probably over a 1000 that I have tied (my boxes are full of my own thank you).

Don't send your cheapest and easiest flies to a swap knowing full well that you will receive something worth much more... Just my $0.02

And don't get all bent out of shape because someone calls you out on getting nice flies for nothing!
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

ttbloom: I lean toward Mudbug on this one. I have participated in numerous swaps and going in you know that you will most likely receive some flies you otherwise wouldn't pick out. That's just the nature of the game. I've also been trying flies for 15 years and still learn new patterns and tricks and techniques and not always from more experienced tyers.

I guess my point is that I enter swaps because I love tying flies and I love the nature of the sharing aspect of the swap in general. Rarely do I enter them hoping to get a dozen A1 flies to fill my box - not that it isn't possible - the streamer swaps I've been in definitely filled my streamer wallets and the midge swaps were great too. For me, that's because I don't spend much time on streamers or midges, so I got a bunch of flies I'd otherwise likely never have.

Anyway, back the point Mudbug made and that I echo: it is impossible to try to regulate the skill or amount of time or "effort" anyone puts into their work. Hell, the effort it takes a beginner to make an #14 Adams could be greater than the effort I put into a #18 BWO emerger.

Also, in my experience with the swaps, I haven't felt other people are making the "cheapest and easiest flies knowing full well that they will receive something worth much more." You yourself said that you've done one swap. So either you are just creating this idea or you had one really crappy swap experience. What I've generally seen is tyers trying their best to impress the rest, that's what it really should be!

My advice and recommendations: choose the swap carefully if you are entering in hopes to get back flies you really think you'll use. Or throw out an idea for a swap and ask one of the new coordinators if they will take it on, i.e. "Advanced Tailwater micro nymph swap" or "CDC emergers under size 16" or whatever it is. Then it could be up to the swapmeister to vet some of the tyers to make sure everyone is up to the level.

I hope you find a swap or two that suits your fancy and you continue to play along!
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

a little more on the experienced vs in experienced swap as i think i may have started the whole debate.

My original point was this. 95% of swaps are for everyone. The 5% comes from a few swaps i suggested last year that involved classic style flies.
I suggested these swaps as i wanted to learn the techniques. The guys who came in on the swaps were aware i was a rookie and were willing to accept substandard flies from me.
These swaps were aslo a challenge for all involved i presume. Turns out one of the swaps never happen, the other i submitted flies for ( flies i would never submit today, now that i have more experience under my belt) but withdrew from through frustration with the swap format and lack of updates, as well as some other reasons i'll not get into.

At the end of the day, you have to decide what you are capable of, and whether, at your current tying experience, would you feel comfortable submitting flies to your highest standard and receiving flies of someone elses highest standard.

Some swaps are niche swaps - but the majority are for all. And the very nature of the swap is to swap, not to get the best examples of flies you would in an orvis store.

(p.s. the 'you' in this reply is directed at no particular individual, but rather at everyone)
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

Deanmt, I appreciate your thoughtful criticism. Mudbug, sorry if I offended. True, I have done one swap, and it seemed to be a bit of a clusterfrig.

I do believe that the individual swaps could be more labor specific ie 'big fancy hoppers' or 'guide midges, 3 steps and less'. I think this would avoid feelings of being slightly jilted when receiving flies that are just so simple it hurts [ie, why did I spend so much darn time?! I could have tied something simple!]. But then the whole thing gets dumbed down to the most played out simple ties because people realize that is what they will get!

I guess my argument is that if people come to expect receiving flies that are so simple that they are not learning anything, they will not be inclined to produce flies that are any more involved that what they have received in the past. This produces a sort of 'tragedy of the commons' as the incentive is to not waste too much time producing anything special, due to the fact that very likely nothing special will be received.
"Hey can I trade this beautiful colorful ornate foam cicada for 2 wraps of dubbing and hackle on a hook?" Answer, "NO!" It just makes people feel a little ripped off by the whole swap process.

Once again, not a bad fly found in the swap I received. They are ALL great flies and will produce fish somewhere. I just felt that some people put in way more effort than others. There were 3-4 flies that were phenomenal; 3-4 that were good and kind of standard; 3-4 that were so simple that I wondered why they needed to be shipped across the continent... Yes some of my favorite ties are nothing but thread and hackle, 2 simple steps, but I would not try to trade them for something much greater. Just people taking advantage of a good situation and the fact that some people will put in a lot of time.

I would rather make this argument, offend a few, and send in some really cool flies next time than not make the argument and just send in something that takes 30 seconds. Thanks for reading, TB
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