The North American Fly Fishing Forum
Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > Forum Polls

Forum Polls Find out what forum members think about various fly fishing topics.


View Poll Results: What practice do you use concerning barbed hooks?
Barbless 26 10.79%
Pinched down barb 118 48.96%
barbed hook 32 13.28%
Depends on situation 65 26.97%
Voters: 241. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:09 PM
ausablebrown's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 853
ausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Quote:
Originally Posted by roryseiter View Post
When tying flies, I only buy barbless hooks. They are easier to remove from the mouth of a fish, myself, clothing, whatever they hook onto. When I buy flies, I try to pinch down the barbs, but it doesn't always go all the way down. I feel bad pulling roughly on the mouth of a fish.
Not to try to be too rational or philosophical, (though my degrees are in philosophy and ethics) but if you feel bad about giving the extra jerk to take the hook out, but not about the initial peircing, pulling, yanking, dragging across rocks and logs, taking out of water, and incinting all kinds of physical and mental anxiety, YOU ARE A MAN AGAINST YOUSELF!! You can do all of this with a barbless hook, but you gasp if I do the same thing with a barb on the end of the hook! Either you completely discount the rights of the fish to live in complete peace or you do not. Anyone who is concerned with the little extra discomfort or damage compared to the general stress that is caused by catching a fish should fish with "HOOKLESS FLIES" and just watch the rises and move on!!!!! I am not trying to be ridiculous, this is a legitimate argument against anyone that gasps when I refuse to use a barbless hook.

That being said, I have never used barbless except in Yellowstone, and on the White river in Arkansas where it was required. I can only remember 2 fish that were damaged beyond recovery; EAGLE FOOD, that is the circle of life!!

YOU ARE IRRATIONAL IF YOU BOTH FISH WITH HOOKS AND FROWN UPON THOSE WHO FISH WITH BARBED HOOKS!

If you feel badly about it and cannot morally and rationally justify the act of pulling a barb out of a fishes mouth, then maybe you should step back and take a look at fishing in general as a morally and rationally acceptable exercise.
Reply With Quote
  #82 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2010, 10:59 AM
Gar's Avatar
Gar Gar is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cedar Rapids, Ia
Posts: 62
Gar will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Last year my buddy had to go to the emergency room and have a barbed hook cut from his lower eye lid. A barbless hook could've saved him $2500 and we would have fished the rest of the day.

Honestly this is why I use barbless, regardless of the fish.
Reply With Quote
  #83 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:21 PM
ausablebrown's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 853
ausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to beholdausablebrown is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Ouch, that is a valid reason for using barbless. I have been fortunate enough or good enough at casting (probably just fortunate) that I have not been seriously hooked. Ive had to rip a couple of 24 midge out, but they don't take much flesh with them. If I had a couple of incindents like that I might tie on barbless hooks myself.

There may be other valid reasons such as yours, but I find the "I don't want to hurt the fish" argument to be duplicitous, that was my point of contention with the previous post(ers) who feign caring for the fish by using barbless.

I love trout as much as the next trout unlimited member, but if I loved them enough to use barbless, then I should also love them enough to not snag them in the face at all! There is but a hairs breadth of difference between the act of hooking a trout with a barbed hook, and a barbless hook.
Reply With Quote
  #84 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2011, 01:36 AM
951tightline's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Norco, CA
Posts: 135
951tightline is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Almost all of my streams here are barbless and thats the way I like it. I believe it is a lot easier on the fish and that's that I'm all about.

Tight Lines
Scott
__________________
Its all about the strike.
CATCH-n-RELEASE
Reply With Quote
  #85 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2011, 03:10 AM
rangerrich99's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anthem, AZ
Posts: 324
rangerrich99 is a name known to allrangerrich99 is a name known to allrangerrich99 is a name known to allrangerrich99 is a name known to allrangerrich99 is a name known to allrangerrich99 is a name known to all
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

I pinch down all barbs on all hooks right after I tie the fly on for a couple simple reasons. One, they are just easier to remove, espeically when the little bugger deicdes to swallow the thing. I'm just not coordinated enough to get a barbed hook out of a fish's gullet without yanking half his innards out of his mouth. Barbless hooks keep me from unintentionally killing more fish. Two, after hooking myself a few times (twice through my hand, once through my through my thumb, once through my arm) when I was still a conventional bass fisherman with barbed 3/0 and 4/0 hooks you begin to see the merits of removing the barb.

The one that really tipped the scales for me was when a fishing buddy of mine nailed me in the back of the head with a spinnerbait that had a 5/0 hook on it. The barb was a little longer than a quarter inch; the hook went all the way through my scalp. Oh, this was through my hat as well. My buddy had to cut my hat and my scalp to get that stupid thing out of my skin. Shot some superglue into it (that hurts, I highly don't recommend this), put my hat back on and kept fishing.

I still have the hat. It reminds to pinch down my barbs and to put on my sunglasses.

Anyway, after that, I always pinched down the barbs on my hooks. If we had been fishing with debarbed hooks that day, I could've saved myself some pain and a scar on the back of my head. And my hat wouldn't have a big bloody hole in it.
__________________
"Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn." ~Chuck Clark
Reply With Quote
  #86 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2012, 01:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 30
pinkygonzales is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

For bigger fish I much prefer barbed but I just don't like doing more damage to a smaller guy than I need to.
Reply With Quote
  #87 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,739
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Every few months there is a post in which a poster thinks that barbless hooks will improve or preserve a trout fishery. This was debunked years ago but fly fishers continue to de-barb their hooks in the belief that this saves fish populations.

Barbless hooks minimize scarring and they make hooks easier to remove from clothing, nets, and fishermen BUT they do not improve the fishing; and some barbless hooks actually kill more fish than the barbed variety.

I discussed the science 6 months ago on this post:

Why barbless?

Here are the three posts I made:

It is interesting to me that no one has posted research that shows barbless hooks increases fish population; or stated another way, that barbed hooks in a catch and release fishery results in fewer fish. The question is whether the increased mortality of barbed hooks results in fewer fish.

Research show that this is not so.

I think one needs to keep in mind that the goal of C&R is to maintain the fish population at or near the carrying capacity of the river. The assumption is then is that breaking the "barbless rule" somehow leads to a decrease in the population of fish in a healthy river.

That assumption is actually false.

https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/Fish...al%20Issue.pdf

Barbed Hook Restrictions in Catch-and-Release Trout Fisheries: A Social Issue

D. J. SCHILL and R. L. SCARPELLA

Idaho Department of Fish and Game, 1414 East Locust Lane, Nampa, Idaho 83686, USA


Abstract.—We summarized results of past studies that directly compared hooking mortality of resident (nonanadromous) salmonids caught and released with barbed or barbless hooks. Barbed hooks produced lower hooking mortality in two of four comparisons with flies and in three of five comparisons with lures. Only 1 of 11 comparisons resulted in statistically significant differences in hooking mortality. In that instance, barbless baited hooks caused significantly less mortality than barbed hooks, but experimented design concerns limited the utility of this finding. Mean hooking mortality rates from past lure studies were slightly higher for barbed hooks than barbless ones, but the opposite was true for flies. For flies and lures combined, mean hooking mortality was 4.5% for barbed hooks and 4.2% for barbless hooks. Combination of test statistics from individual studies by gear type via meta-analysis yielded nonsignificant results for barbed versus barbless flies, lures, or flies and lures combined. We conclude that the use of barbed or barbless flies or lures plays no role in subsequent mortality of trout caught and released by anglers. Because natural mortality rates for wild trout in streams commonly range from 30% to 65% annually, a 0.3% mean difference in hooking mortality for the two hook types is irrelevant at the population level, even when fish are subjected to repeated capture. Based on existing mortality studies, there is no biological basis for barbed hook restrictions in artificial fly and lure fisheries for resident trout. Restricting barbed hooks appears to be a social issue. Managers proposing new special regulations to the angling public should consider the social costs of implementing barbed hook restrictions that produce no demonstrable biological gain.


This research confirms the earlier work (1987) of Robert Behnke, the leading trout researcher in the USA.

Behnke, 1987. Catch and Release Fishing, A decade of experience. Proceedings from USA National Sport Fishing Symposium.
Summary of Catch and Release based research over previous 10 years for National Sports Fishing Symposium, USA. “consistent agreement among hooking mortality studies that demonstrate no significant difference in mortality of fish caught and released on single, treble, barbed or barbless hooks.”

Professor Behnke wrote an editorial on pg. 56 in the Fall 2007 issue of TU's Trout magazine titled "Trading Stubbornness for Science". Trout Unlimited is dedicated to the preservation of cold water fisheries. To their credit, they did due diligence and refused to perpetuate the lie that barbless hooks improves the fishery.

To quote Dr. Behnke, ".....statistical analysis of many hooking studies performed over many years agreed that the type of hook was insignificant in determining mortality. Several state agencies, without an understanding of this scientific data instituted barbless-only restrictions on special regulations waters. When angling violations records were examined in Idaho and Oregon, the barbless violations were the most common. Almost all of these violations were accidental; a fly is broken off and in a moment of excitement, a new fly, not fitting the narrow legal description of barbless, is tied on and the angler commits a violation."

"In view of the fact that there is no scientific or biological justification for the barbless hook regulations, a change in the law in Idaho and Oregon was proposed. Public meeting were held. The hard core, no-kill, barbless-only fanatics generated lots of heat, but no light, in a passionate defense of an irrational opinion."

"I have characterized such irrational behavior by some anglers as a trivial pursuit and the arrogance of ignorance......"

If any requirement of C&R fishing is to adversely impact fish population, it must, either in whole or in part along with other practices, be sufficient to adversely impact the fish populations above the natural mortality level. It is only then that the trout population will be below the river's carrying capacity.

The are reasons to be gentle on trout that will be released, but let us not forget that what is important is that quality trout are present at the carrying capacity of the river. Sometimes this means harvesting fish, other times releasing fish, and that barbless vs barbed hooks has no effect on fish populations.

There are reasons to go barbless because they cause less scarring of fish, less scarring of fishermen and so on. However to say that barbless make a difference in fish populations or is necessary or even desirable for successful C&R is false.

Lets not perpetuate the myth. If you want to use barbless, great. If you want to use barbed, there is no reason to feel guilty.

Finally, the Wisconsin DNR did it's own research and found that barbless makes no difference in a fishery even when used with bait or lures. The DNR removed all barbless requirements in our special regulations fisheries. When presented with the research, I voted as a member of the Wisconsin State Council of TU to support that change.

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/sc...outHooking.pdf

I would also add that an occasional photo does not make a difference either. If you do it fast, gently, and resuscitate before release, you are not harming the fish population.

Other than harvesting fish, in my view the greatest harm is done by anglers that overplay fish.

-------------

I wanted to chime in again on the barbless hooks since almost all fly fishers are unaware that the science on larger barbless hooks has changed by 180 degrees.

The main reason is the stiletto effect of barbless hooks. With no barb to hold the hook in place, the barbless hook becomes a curved blade or knife that can make multiple stab wounds as the fish struggles. With no barb, the hook can penetrate deeper reaching the carotid artery or the brain of the trout.

See this quote on page 76 from About Trout, The Best of Robert J. Behnke from Trout Magazine. Professor Robert J. Behnke is the leading authority on trout and Trout Magazine is the publication of Trout Unlimited.

"Almost all hooking mortality studies have demonstrated no significant difference in mortality between trout caught on single ...... barbed, or barbless hooks. There is however a slight but consistent increase in mortality due to barbless hooks.

...... this is due to what he calls the "stiletto effect" ....... almost all mortality of trout caught on artificial lures or flies is due to rupture of the respiratory filaments of the gills or penetration of the carotid artery in the roof of the mouth. Because of their greater penetration power, barbless hooks are more prone to puncture the carotid artery."

Here's another quote from Fly Fishing Yellowstone: "There is no biological reason to believe that a barbless hook is going to increase the chances of a trout's survival. There is a public perception that it does. So; as noted previously, here, Yellowstone National Park has changed it's fishing regulations to require barbless hooks. -- As soon as the stiletto effect, (and it's deep infections,) becomes widely publicized; fly fishers, the public, and the powers at Yellowstone National Park will probably change the rules again."

There has been a patent awarded for a barbless hook that reduces the stiletto effect. Here's a quote from the patent application, "To date barbless hooks have been made from normal barbed hooks flattening the barb out. Without the barb these hooks cause less damage to the fish upon removal, however they can cause severe damage to the fish during the fight as they tend to jump around a fish's mouth, making several wounds as the hook jumps out and repositions elsewhere. This is known as the "stiletto effect"........ The bulb just behind the point of the hook provides some holding power thereby reducing the "stiletto effect" while increasing the chances of landing the fish, and allowing for fast and safe release causing less damage to the fish and increasing its chance of survival."

The bottom line is that barbless hooks can kill slightly more fish than barbed hooks. I still believe that small barbless hooks kill slightly few fish than barbed hooks but larger barbless hooks actually kill more fish than barbed hooks. Larger barbless hooks can "brain" trout; and by repeated punctures, even smaller hooks have a greater change of a fatal carotid artery or gill injury.

There are reasons for and against both barbed and barbless hooks. You will land more fish with barbed hooks. Barbed hooks take a bit more longer to remove and cause more local soft tissue scaring of fish. Barbless hooks are more easily removed if you hook yourself or someone else.

Personally I pinch down the barbs only when required by a barbless hook regulation, or when using really small hooks (18 and smaller) that are difficult to remove anyway. I never pinch down the barbs on streamers or hooks larger than 16 unless required by law. Barbless hook regulations are contrary to the latest research and may make us feel good while they are actually killing the fish they were meant to preserve.

By de-barbing the larger hooks and not the smaller, you are actually doing just the opposite of what science tells you to do to save the most fish.

It is point of the hook kills and not the barb. The function of the barb is to hold the hook in place, and the function of the point is to stab and penetrate. It is the act of stabbing that kills fish.

Ouitdoors in Maine: Barbless hooks revisted | Sun Journal

http://www.techbrew.com/products/pro...s/Brochure.pdf


--------

Barbless hooks have been sold to fly fishers on the basis of less mortality with the belief that the mortality difference would lead to more fish.

But the science has shown that there is only a slight mortality difference between barbed and barbless hooks. This slight difference has ZERO population effect. It is the act of catching a fish that is the overwhelming cause of C&R mortality and not the type of hook used.

The "advantage" of barbless is when we hook our nets, clothing, or ourselves. I believe this should be the choice of the fly fisher and not legislated.

There is also a cosmetic advantage in that there is less scarring of the fish. Barbless may be an esthetic issue, but it is not a population issue in my opinion.

In my state of Wisconsin we used to have a mandatory barbless hook regulation for an early season fishery. This was repealed when our DNR's own research and the studies of other researchers became known. We now have an early season without a mandatory barbless hook regulation.

There is the issue of the stiletto effect. I happen to believe that it is real and that it does cause more injury. I also believe the injury potential increases as hook size and potential penetration depth increases. So I individualize when I will remove my hook barbs and when I will not.
__________________
Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #88 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:54 PM
trout trekker's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West Slope Sierra Range, CA.
Posts: 408
trout trekker is a name known to alltrout trekker is a name known to alltrout trekker is a name known to alltrout trekker is a name known to alltrout trekker is a name known to alltrout trekker is a name known to all
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

Barbless is the law in most of the places I fish. I don’t need anymore encouragement than that.
However, self preservation has always been high on my list.

Best, TT
Reply With Quote
  #89 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:54 PM
chuck s's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Rock River, Wyoming
Posts: 521
chuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nicechuck s is just really nice
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

I use both but I'm firm believer in, "Selective Release," and make it a point to know the fishery I am targeting and do keep some fish for our consumption. My experence and education lends itself to his subject and have read all the studies published up through a couple years back. Here's my take:

(On the fly)

On Tarpon, go barbless or near barbless as the barb makes it harder to set the hook. For those of you not in the know, try setting a hook in a concrete block.

On Bass I use both as far as the fish is concerned but err toward Barbless as they are easier to remove from myself. Although I can actually say I've been hooked by both singles and trebles with and without barbs over the past 60 plus years. Barbed come out easy using the mono method but beware of those itty bitty flies as they are often buried flush and it's hard to loop them so I debarb them for sure.

I use a dehooker so unhooking fish isn't a problem, just a flick and they are off regardless of barb or not in most cases and by doing that I have no need to handle them or remove them from the water, two of the biggest factors in fish mortality. (Runje's Releaser in fresh and the DeHooker in the salt)
__________________
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24405&dateline=129884  8088
Great Fishing
Der Alt Jaeger
Chuck S

"I've traveled many roads and some weren't paved."
Will Rodgers

http://fishing-folks.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #90 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:08 AM
lthrnk03's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 379
lthrnk03 is a jewel in the roughlthrnk03 is a jewel in the roughlthrnk03 is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: Touchy subject:Barbless or barbed

I pinch down all my barbs. It allows me to get the fish back in the water a lot quicker. I do most of my fishing alone, so pinching down the barbs just makes good sense. I would hate for my day to get cut short because I have to go to the ER with a hook in me.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On














All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.