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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2009, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

I'm in agreement with everyone on this. Hold high to get the fish to the surface where there is less depth and current for you to fight, once the fish is high in the water column then drop the rod tip and apply side pressure to turn it toward you. Once the fish is both on the surface and coming at you head first it is time to 'pump and reel' to bring it in quickly. If it dives or turns on you repeat the steps until you have it at shore or in your net.

Remember, fish do not swim backwards with any great authority so turning one, especially a big one right at you is the fastest and best bet for landing your catch.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2009, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Hardyreels, okay now that you mention getting the fish up top I have to ask. Isn't the river current the fastest on top? I do like your strategy though, thanks.
Racine
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Racine,

As an opening point I'll ask you this, which is easier, to quickly skim your open hand across the surface of the water or to do the same at a depth of two feet?

Without going into a dissertation concerning the various conditions that control current speed and velocity and where those highest speeds are found I'll make this easy. The deeper the fish is in the current whether it is faster than the surface current or slower, the more that fish can leverage the weight and velocity of the depth and speed of the water against the pressure you are applying with the rod. Thus the *factthat a fish is easier to pull with a fly rod when said fish is nearer the surface of the water. Remember, the fish is not consciously using the water or any other strategy when you have it hooked. You are the one with consciousness and strategy so use it. Try what I'm suggesting and then allow a fish to go deep and try reeling it in. I believe you'll find the difference for yourself.


Ard

*fact: 1. something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened; 2. the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2009, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Ard, there are many variables in fighting fish. Your explanation appears sound. Sometimes some of us cannot see all dimensions together that more experienced fishermen do thus my one dimensional question. These posts have more than answered my question. Thanks for sharing your thoughts nevertheless, they are appreciated.
Racine
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2009, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Quote:
Originally Posted by racine View Post
...Fighting a fish with the rod low puts maximum pressure with the rods butt section and most tension on the line and fish. Fighting with the rod high puts minimum pressure on the line but helps with the shock absorption on finer tippets. ...
Actually, it's works a little differently. What you need to be concened about here is the difference between total force and an instantaneous change in force (shear). If we were talking straight physics, the analogy would be between velocity and acceleration.

The total force on the line/leader/tippet will be the same whether you point the rod at the fish or you hold it vertically. What changes is that in the "point the rod at the fish" position, you have no buffer against the fish putting a lot of instantaneous force on the line; and that's what generates the force that we don't want; the shear force. In this situation, the only buffer; or shock absorbing capabilities that you have are built into the line /leader/tippet and although leader and tippet are both stretchable, they can't cope with the shear force that can be put on the line by a big fish (or a strong fighting fish).

Enter rod flex. Here's where your buffer/shock absorber capabilities against shear forces come into play and this is what provides you with the most protection against break-off at the leader/tippet point.

I always hold my rod at 75 degrees or better after I've set the hook. It makes sense to me from the standpoint of protection against shear forces on the line. It also gives you maximum "feel" when playing the fish. There's no feel at all with the rod pointed at the fish. However, there's a lot of feel when the rod is held vertically.

So, for me the best mode is to hold the rod high when you're playing/landing a fish.

Good luck!
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Allan, I must admit I haven't understood everything at first readingso I'll have to read it again...I've never been very good at physics...(high level explanation)
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

J-P,

I left the drag characteristics of the reel out of my post, because, the flex characteristics of the rod will react to quick changes in force applied to the line before the drag kicks in.

By quick changes in force, I mean, for example, when the hooked fish decides that he's going to make a run for the other end of the pool, riffle, or run. When he makes that decision and starts heading in that direction, he does it quickly and that changes the force on the line quickly; which generates the shear force that breaks you off if you can't absorb the shock through the flexing of the rod.

When I first started fly fishing, I thought that the only reason for the different rod flex types (rod action) was for "castability". But after I'd fished a while, I realized that the rod flex characteristics were really built in to help you fight/land fish with different size/weight/fighting characteristics.

I will say though, that if a person is going to be landing fish that are much smaller than the gear he or she is fishing was designed for, then it really doesn't matter much what position you hold your rod in when you hook the fish; because your gear is simply "over-built" for the situation.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Allan,impressed I am...and that's an undestatement
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocono View Post
Actually, it's works a little differently. What you need to be concened about here is the difference between total force and 1. an instantaneous change in force (shear). If we were talking straight physics, the analogy would be between velocity and acceleration.

2. The total force on the line/leader/tippet will be the same whether you point the rod at the fish or you hold it vertically. What changes is that in the "point the rod at the fish" position, you have no buffer against the fish putting a lot of instantaneous force on the line; and that's what generates the force that we don't want; the shear force. In this situation, the only buffer; or shock absorbing capabilities that you have are built into the line /leader/tippet and although leader and tippet are both stretchable, they can't cope with the shear force that can be put on the line by a big fish (or a strong fighting fish).

Enter rod flex. Here's where your buffer/shock absorber capabilities against shear forces come into play and this is what provides you with the most protection against break-off at the leader/tippet point.

3. I always hold my rod at 75 degrees or better after I've set the hook. It makes sense to me from the standpoint of protection against shear forces on the line. It also gives you maximum "feel" when playing the fish. There's no feel at all with the rod pointed at the fish. However, there's a lot of feel when the rod is held vertically.

So, for me the best mode is to hold the rod high when you're playing/landing a fish.

Good luck!
While this post may contain enough buzz words from a physics book to pass the smell test, it is inaccurate. Shear stress is not what causes the monofilament to yield. There is a term called impact shear that may be what Pocono is referring to, but both shear stress and impact shear are time independent.

1. Shear stress is NOT instantaneous change in force. It has nothing to do with time and everything to do with force distribution (i.e. area over which force is applied).

2. The force applied by the fish to the line/leader/tippet will be the same whatever angle the rod is at. That much is true. However the 'buffer' that you refer to is flatly ignoring all of the frictional forces that help in fighting the fish. If you angle the rod to the side, rather than vertical, you increase the number of frictional forces working for you (by a lot). The fish is pulling in one direction. If you angle the rod to the side (as opposed to straight in the air), you have and increased amount of water frictional forces working on the fly line. These forces are increased as the amount of surface area is increased. By laying most of your fly line in the water, there is a large increase in the amount of surface area for the water to resist. That is the primary difference as both the side fighting and the vertical fighting employ the flex of the rod and the friction from the guides as well as increasing the amount of fly line available to stretch. The drag of the reel is also a net sum zero change on the efficiency between the vertical and side fighting style.

3. 75 degrees has no magical mathematical maximum efficiency. If this was a two dimensional problem, 45 degrees would be the optimum angle to distribute the forces equally on the y-axis and x-axis. The cartesian coordinates do not really apply in this instance though because life is 4-d. You have to account for a z-axis and the fourth dimension (time). As complicated as that may sound, it is not. Solution: pull the opposite direction the fish is pulling, whatever direction that may change to over the duration of the fight. The more frictional forces you can employ to fight the fish, the greater advantage you have.

Finally, I believe the physics term that Pocono may be trying to explain is impulse. Impulse is the change in momentum of an object over which a force is applied. Momentum introduces the important element of time. The amount of force a fish can apply is finite. The critical part is the distribution of time over which the fish can apply the force. If the fish is played purely on the line, without the aid of the fly rod or the reel, the fish will snap the tippet (usually at a knot). The snap will usually occur during the transitionary time between slack and taught. What is critical is to extend the amount of time during any change in momentum. A sudden change is what causes the snap (i.e. time is the critical element).

For the really nerdy folks, here is a little link that may further explain the newtonian explanation of impulse.

Momentum and Impulse Connection
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2009, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Overhead Rod position fighting trout

DFG,

Thanks for the clarifications.

1. What I was talking about was the rapid change in force placed on the line when a fish darts off away from the fisherman. It's when a lot of people will experience a break-off.

2. I agree that there are other factors to take into consideration and I will often play a fish with my rod angled sideways to take advantage of the friction of the line in the water. Also agree that the other factors mentioned; friction from the guides, rod flex and reel drag are substantially equal in either a vertical or horizontal rod fighting position. My point was that rod flex and, to capture your point, friction from the guides, are non-functioning factors if you point your rod at the fish while trying to play him. But they are functioning factors if you have your rod angled away from the fish.

3. 75 degrees is definitely not a magical number to me; it's simply how I hold my rod. It's not a recommendation; it's a report.

4. Impulse may well be what I was referring to. I left Physics behind me as a freshman in undergrad school. So, it's been a while.
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