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Old 02-26-2010, 10:15 AM
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Default over/ under lining?

Alright,

So Riekky's thread about line for his TFO-X, got me thinking.... The general consensus was that overlining that rod is almost a necessity.

I've also heard a lot of talk about 'slowing down' a fast rod by overlining.

A few questions arise in my mind: Disclaimer: I don't have the years of experience that many here do-- this is all suppositions in my head.....

First wouldn't the caster need to 'work' a little harder to maintain line speed- and keep the line high in order to 'slow' the rod down? Gravity would have to come into play at some point.... (I don't see the rod 'slowing down' and opening the window of sweet spot much more than it is built to do-- a heavier line will fall quicker if the caster doesn't keep it moving....)

Second-- if a heavier line loads up quicker, wouldn't that in essence make the rod quicker?

what effect would overlining (or underlining) a rod that is a mid or even full flex?

I would suppose that these lining techniques are more dynamic than a straight 'truth' for all rods....

Discuss--
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

You're assuming that you need a high line speed to keep your cast from collapsing
That's only true if you're trying to keep a lot of line in the air.
A high line speed is usefully for distance and in the wind, but makes accuracy difficult and with close-in casting it's detrimental.

I over-line all my saltwater rods because I often use large wind resistant flies and droppers which both require a more open loop.

With your second point, think of the rod as a spring. The more it loads in one direction, the further it can spring back. That doesn't make it quicker.
(Physics is not a strong point of mine.... obviously)

There's not much point in overlining slower rods, but some you may like better underlined. I have a 6'5",5wt. that casts better with a 4wt line
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

"Fast"-ness in rods is frequently understood to mean stiffness, though this is not necessarily the case. Technically, it refers to how long it takes a rod to return to straight after being flexed. Since a stiff rod flexes less, this generally means it will return to straight quicker. Also, since a rod with a "tip" action/flex is bending less far down the blank, it should be able to return to straight more quickly.

Since casting a heavier line on a given rod both makes it flex more off of straight, and more deeply down the blank, overlining decreases "fast"-ness, rather than assisting it.

I go into a little more detail on this thread- TFO finesse question
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

Today, most fly lines are a little heavy, as they were designed for today's faster fly rods.

Overlining is fine if you're making short, quick casts, but it slows down the rod as the line is too heavy for the fly rodand, therefore, limits casting distance and will probably cause tailing loops. (The rod will bend too much, too quickly.)

Underlining will help you false cast more line; so if you really want to go for maximum distance underlining is the way to go, but you'll have trouble loading the fly rod for short- and medium-range casts.

Randy
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

Tide, I agree about overlining and why you do it-- I do the same--my 8 wt.is for bigger loops (because that is the only way I can throw it...) and bigger/ heavier/ more wind resistant flies and I usually overline it w/ 9 wt. sink tip. It is a mod/ fast action rod.

As for the spring analogy-- I see your point, but my question is: one of the 'virtues' of a fast rod is the distance-- like you said-- it seems like it would become somewhat cumbersome to carry a lot of over-lined line in the air--

Also-- there comes a point when a fast rod won't flex anymore-- In essence-- you're carrying a lot of heavy line with a rod that doesn't give any bigger of a 'sweet spot'-- Or can you increase the 'sweet spot' by changing a rod's 'characteristics' with line?

Am I thinking through this correctly? I really don't have a complete understanding of rod actions-- I understand the terms and what each 'action' means or represents-- but I don't have an understanding 'theory' with regards to behavior 'tolerances'...

FWIW-- all of my rods are mid/tip flex-- short of my 'ultralights' (1 and 3 wts.)-- they are more of a mid/full flex....


//edit// thanks cliff-- I'll look at your explanation in the linky--
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

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Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post

Overlining is fine if you're making short, quick casts, but it slows down the rod as the line is too heavy for the fly rodand, therefore, limits casting distance and will probably cause tailing loops. (The rod will bend too much, too quickly.)
If you make the mistake of casting either a slower action rod or a rod that is overlined with a stroke that is too fast you will have tailing loops.
But that's your fault, not the fault of the rod.
I overline my rods by as much as 3 sizes and I can assure you that in most every case the line is not too heavy for the rod.
I do have a $13 Walmart 6wt that collapses at around 60' with an 8wt line, but that's the exception not the rule.

An acquaintance of mine fishes a 5wt in the salt with a 9wt line but even I think that's nutz. I'm not sure what size line he uses on his 3wt, but that's just showing off.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

I wouldn't count on overlining or underlining changing the "action" of the rod.

It will change the "loading" of the rod with the same amount of line overhanging the tip.

Increasing the amount of overhang by 5 to 10 feet beyond 30' will also increase the effective line weight by 1 line weight.

For instance, when I am fooling around trying to see how far I can throw a six weight floating line on a perfectly still day, I can throw it farthest with an 8 weight Sage TCR rod because I have about 80 feet of line out the rod tip for the final shoot forward. So the rod will still deeply load with a light line.

Uplining will deeply load the rod with less line out. "Loading" and "Action" are two different things in my opinion.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

Thanks Jim and Cliff--

This makes more sense with you explanations-- I was thinking in terms of 'loading' and 'action' being different terms for the same idea. I also didn't consider the 'rebound' or returning to straight as Cliff described it....

Tide-- you and your friend who overline sound like you guys are nutz.... big show-offs.

Also Jim-- 80 ft.-- really? Holy (explicit)... I am comfortable to about 60 ft... but at that distance, I've found even 5 more feet really changes things-- I can't imagine going another 20 feet out (and I've tried just for fun...)
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
Underlining will help you false cast more line; so if you really want to go for maximum distance underlining is the way to go, but you'll have trouble loading the fly rod for short- and medium-range casts.
While this is absolutely correct, it brings up an advantage of overlining worth mentioning. Since a heavier line puts more bend in the rod, it often can help reduce the number of false casts needed to extend more line outside the rod tip. If you're nymphing with an indicator rig, reducing the number of false casts needed to go from say 20' to 45' can be a huge plus.

This, along with stack mending needs, is why I can't get super excited about stiff rods for nymphing.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: over/ under lining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCliff View Post
While this is absolutely correct, it brings up an advantage of overlining worth mentioning. Since a heavier line puts more bend in the rod, it often can help reduce the number of false casts needed to extend more line outside the rod tip.
.
If you're sight fishing the flats and you need to make more that two false casts..... you are doing it wrong
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