The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussions regarding fly fishing as a whole. Ask questions. Get answers...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:05 AM
wabi's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: southern Ohio
Posts: 520
wabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nice
Default casting problems

Lately I've been having a few problems with my casting.
It seems like sometimes the forward cast just runs out of energy and the last few feet of line and leader sometimes just "pile up" or fall in a heap on the water instead of rolling out in a straight line.
I put my camera on a picnic table at the lake the other evening and shot a video of my cast to see if I could see me fault(s).
I think I have the problem(s) spotted, but would like some other opinions before I start working on correcting them.
I would also mention I usually cast "sidearm" because of shoulder problems, a good overhead cast is often painful.

Here's a short clip from the video I shot -
Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:15 AM
FrankB2's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,760
FrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: casting problems

Hi Mike,
You have a two part foward arm movement. During the second part, you move your forearm downward dramatically. The rod follows that same path, and the line follows the rod. As much as people poo-poo the 10 o'clock-2 o'clock cast, you should give that a try. You can use whatever time you'd like, as long as it is NOT 6'oclock-12 o'clock. If you're going to use the overhead cast, keep the rod tip up until the line straightens on the foward cast. The line will follow the path of the rod/rod tip, and if that's downward, the line will go downward. Hope that helps.
***Edited above to correct the italicized sentence. It might have seemed that I was sggesting moving your forearm down dramatically. I left out a couple of words... :;
***EDITED AGAIN**** I typed ...."as long as it is 6 o'clock-12 O'clock. Meant to say isn't
P.S.
Watch Tim Landwehr's casting videos. Tim goes over the basics first, but at 6 minutes he gets to what you need:
Give Part 2 a look as well.

Last edited by FrankB2; 06-03-2011 at 09:35 PM. Reason: More typo's....Arghhh
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:26 AM
troutman's Avatar  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20
troutman is on a distinguished road
Default Re: casting problems

Your first cast on the video looks good, in my opinion. On your second cast it looks like you are just a little lack-luster on your cast to be shooting the line. Are you keeping your loops tight? I've found that I have the problem you are describing whenever I allow my loops to open up. It also looks like you're breaking your wrist on the cast. Some people pooh pooh on doing this, but I don't see much of a problem with it. Just if you're going to cast with the wrist make sure you make a faster "snap" with it when you're shooting your line. Hope this helps.
Aaron
__________________
There is nothing more philosophical nor poetic than a man standing in a river waving a stick.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:34 AM
randyflycaster's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 607
randyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to allrandyflycaster is a name known to all
Default Re: casting problems

I agree with the above comments. On my forward cast I break my wrist halfway, as if I'm hammering a nail. That way I can stop the rod abuptly, without lowering the rod tip from the target line.

Also, you don't seem to be getting any of your weight into your cast. Rotating your hips willl help you increase your casting power. (You certainly don't have to do this for short casts.)

In fact, your cast seems more like a wrist flick, than a full cast. I would try bringing your elbow in a bit closer to your body, so that your elbow points slightly to the right of the target; then, on your back cast, move your forearm from about 10:30 to 12:00. (Do not pull your elbow back.) Your fly rod will point to about 1:00. Now, move your forearm forward to about 11:00, then execute your hammering motion and stop the rod.

Keep in mind, however, that you see some long-distance casters, including Lefty Kreh, use a much different method of casting, but for trout fishing I would try the way I described.

Randy
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 03:40 PM
wabi's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: southern Ohio
Posts: 520
wabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nice
Default Re: casting problems

Going to work on my cast this evening, but the thing I saw was that I'm not coming to an abrupt stop on the forward cast. More like a slow down and continue the motion of dropping the rod tip to the horizontal before the line has had time to straighten out.
Guess I'm going to have to go back to watching the clock for a few days.
__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:01 PM
FrankB2's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,760
FrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond reputeFrankB2 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: casting problems

Mike,
I began fishing with a fly rod when I was 15. Flailing the rod around (not criticzing you) was all I wanted to do until I was almost 40. My son wanted to learn how to fly fish at the time, and I quickly realized that I couldn't cast! I bought a book, but didn't feel like being bothered. It became clear that whipping a rod around wasn't getting my son anywhere, so I stopped at the local fly shop and told them I needed help. One of the staff took me to the soccer field 15 steps from the store's front door, and showed me essentially what Tim Landwehr has on YouTube. I was happy to get 25-35 feet of line out under ideal conditions for the next couple years, but decided that I wanted to cast while it was windy. That winter, I spent as much spare time casting into howling winds. I also realized that an understanding of casting mechanics was essential to consistently good casting. Once you realize that it's an issue of energy transfer, everything can fall into place. The rod, line, and leader all taper from thick to thin to transfer energy. My wife does the same thing you're doing in the video, and I stop her immediately. "A STOP to a STOP"; "Wait for the line to straighten"; "Accelerate to a STOP", and she's tuned up for about 45 minutes (when she forgets it all again ).

It should be noted that as an angler's skills progress, the elements of casting become second nature. When Tim demonstrates the basic cast, he says there are no other movements (including wrist), but he's hauling the line with his left hand. He might not even be aware of it. I can show my wife what she's doing wrong, but the line travels nicely when I do it. I guess I'm making subtle corrections, and I tell her that when you finally learn to cast, it's tough to make a bad cast. That's probably true. It took me 25 years to realize/admit that I needed help, and a few more years to accept it. Silly Me!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dudley, NC
Posts: 238
ncflyboy will become famous soon enoughncflyboy will become famous soon enough
Default Re: casting problems

Hi Mike,

I have never subscribed to the "10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" rod position theory...sometimes the rod is below you (like fishing from a dock) or short trees are behind you (and you need to do a "steeple cast").

You may simply cast with the upper half of a long rod (9 footer) to watch the way the line travels. I have a little 4wt that is 5'8"...and it humbles me when I am at the pond or the lake. Cast your rod parallel and low to the ground to study the way the line behaves on your backcast/fowardcast.

Another thing to consider is rod action. On a slower action rod, slow down your movements. Speed up your movements on a faster action rod. Let the rod tell you to speed up or slow down....watch the line as well!

I would start practicing with as little as 10 ft of line, then gradually casting 30 or 40 ft (in 10 ft increments). Use half of the rod to initially study the movement of the line.

Half the battle is forming that nice loop on your foward cast...the other half is hooking the fish! Have fun and you will be fine!

Cheers,

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:30 PM
wjc wjc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south florida
Posts: 1,444
wjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant future
Default Re: casting problems

Wabi,

Next time you take a video, take it from the side so we can see the rod angle and bend. It is much more difficult to see anything but your tracking from the back view.

One thing, is that you have way too much slack in the the line before you start your backcast. Point the rod down and directly toward the fly when both stripping and getting ready for the backcast with the arm extended forward as far as comfortable/possible. You can't set a hook with slack in the line and you can't get the end of the line moving with slack in it either until the slack is removed.

Try to get the line moving and beginning to lift off the water by moving your forearm toward you without rotating the rod much at first, then merge into rotatingl. This should be done in a smooth acceleration all the way to the stop. What you are doing there is applyin the force too abruptly, in too short a stroke. Smooth is the name of the game. You are also using a full flex rod, and they require an even longer casting stroke than a fast tip flex rod.

You have a good backcast stop, but it is happening too high on the clock. In other words your casting trajectory is tilted forward, which I think is what Frank was saying. Lengthen your backcast stroke and shorten your forward stroke. You aren't coming to a stop on your forward stroke. You want a motion like trying to flick paint off a paintbrush with both strokes, accelerating so the paint stays on it then a quick snap and stop at the end.

To get an idea of what a rod does when you snap it backwards from a stop try this:

Hold just your rod tip (no line strung through the guides) horizontally a couple inches above a soft pillow or sofa cushion. Now, snap the rod abruptly upwards away from the pillow. Just a short snap so you don't hit the ceiling.

If you do this, and let me know what happens, you'll get the rest of the story....

If Wabi doesn't do it in a couple days you other guys should try it. The fuller the flex the better.

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 06-05-2011 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Edit in red - -less confusing phrasing
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 08:03 PM
wabi's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: southern Ohio
Posts: 520
wabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nicewabi is just really nice
Default Re: casting problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
Wabi,

To get an idea of what a rod does when you snap it backwards from a stop try this:

Hold just your rod tip (no line strung through the guides) horizontally a couple inches above a soft pillow or sofa cushion. Now, snap the rod abruptly upwards away from the pillow. Just a short snap so you don't hit the ceiling.

If you do this, and let me know what happens, you'll get the rest of the story....

If Wabi doesn't do it in a couple days you other guys should try it. The fuller the flex the better.

Cheers,
Jim
You have my attention!
The rod tip flexes back down and hits the cushion.
__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:22 PM
wjc wjc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south florida
Posts: 1,444
wjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant future
Default Re: casting problems

You tried it!! Great. It's hard to believe until you do it that snapping a rod up makes the tip go down.

So when you suddenly "hit" a cast, the tip of your rod is not going in the direction of the cast but exactly backwards and what it's doing is throwing a wave into your line. Once you have a wave in your line it stays there, until the entire line goes through it, and it does no good for the cast.

Here is a dramatic video of what a sudden rod bend and subsequent straightening of the rod can do to a cast. It is caused in this case by a haul started and finished way too soon and abruptly in the cast.


Smooth and continuous acceleration to the stop is the key. After the stop, drift back, wait for the loop to unroll and start forward, smooth and continuous acceleration to the stop again.

Cheers,
Jim

Last edited by wjc; 06-03-2011 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Red edit
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
casting problems troutbound General Discussion 6 04-16-2010 08:20 PM
casting problems?? new fly line johnny5wa The Fly Cast 8 02-23-2008 11:47 PM
new GL3 1086-4....casting problems fishin fever The Fly Cast 4 11-16-2005 12:25 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.