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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

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Originally Posted by Bigdog2421 View Post
Thank you, but my question was "Has anyone tried that new red monofilament for tippet material?" Does it disappear as is claimed?
I said "Back in my Scuba days, if I cut myself, blood looked a real forest green type color. The important point here is that it was NOT invisible. Red does not vanish with depth, it just looks like a different color." Repeat, "NOT invisible. Red does not vanish with depth."

More importantly I gave you the information that explained how depending on the pigments in the red, the deeper it would have to go not to still be red.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

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Originally Posted by wjc View Post
I think only a fish would know that answer for sure since they are looking at it through fish eyes.

What it looks like to us may have little bearing on it.
I appologize for another long reply but apparently my previous explanations are lacking in clarity.

If "only a fish would know that answer for sure since they are looking at it through fish eyes", means that we cannot know if a fish sees red; and if "What it looks like to us may have little bearing on it", also means that our color vision has little or no relationship to a trout's color vision; both are incorrect.

Form equals function. Biologists have examined the cones of trout, the organs that see color. They have 4 types of cones, one more than a human, but the UV cone gradually becomes non functional.

So mature fish have 3 sets of cones just like humans. The original 4 cones cover a slightly broader spectrum into the UV and IR. The cone that sees into the IR remains. Remember Diver Dan posted that IR light attracted a sturgeon? That is probably the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
I think Sturgeon can even see infared light. I was in an icehouse with a guy that had a camera down It was one with infared LED lights for use in the dark or deeper water. While I was standing there we saw a set of whiskers go by and some stirring of the silt on the bottom. The next thing we saw was this Sturgeon eye fill the TV monitor. It just froze there like it was mesmorized. ......... I have no idea how long it was there after I left, but it seemed to be hypnotized by it while I was there.
So if the cones of a trout are sensitive to the same color spectrum that we are, we can assume that the trout "sees" the those same colors - those colors stimulate the optic nerve. What we don't know for sure is how the fish "interprets" the color it sees. Regardless, the original question was is red tippet invisible, and the answer is clearly no. How it interprets a red tippet is what you don't know for sure.

That is precisely the reason I brought up population dynamics. I don't believe the all fish interpret it exactly the same. It may spook some and not others.

If you don't believe what I am proposing, consider the following. How do you know that when you and a friend look at a red paint chip, you both are seeing the same thing? You assume you both are, because the anatomy of the cones in your eyes are the same, so they presumably react the same. You also assume the occipital lobes of both your brains react the same way to the optic nerve signals and you "interpret" those signals in the same way. So you see the same color. However, that does not mean you have the "reaction" to that color. You may love it and he may hate it. That is the difference between anatomy and population dynamics.

For an in depth discussion of human vs fish color vision see:

"The three types of cones in the human eye each contain a photo-sensitive pigment that has the capacity to absorb a range of light wavelengths. Each cone is characterized by the wavelength at which maximum or peak absorption occurs. The three are as follows:


erythrolabe; peak absorption at 565nm; red
chlorolabe; peak absorption at 535nm; green
cyanolabe; peak absorption at 440nm; blue


Light wavelength is measured in nanometers and the visible spectrum ranges from 700nm (red) to 400nm (blue-violet).

Trout Eyes:


Trout, on the other hand, have four receptors, and the four peaks are 600nm, 535nm, 440nm, 355nm.


The second and third conform to the green and blue cones in humans. The first is similar to the human red, but its sensitivity range includes longer wavelengths than humans. The fourth is outside the band of wavelengths visible to humans and is referred to as "ultra-violet". However, the fourth class of cones disappears by the time a trout is two years old."

Conclusions:


3. The color red appears brighter than it does to humans, but quickly becomes black at greater distance.


Color Vision in Trout Eyes | Trout University

Bottom line - trout can see the same colors that we do, in fact they see a bit further into the infra red. So they actually see more red color and not less than us.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

Excellent post Silver Creek. By the way, how did you pick the name Silver Creek?
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

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Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
Excellent post Silver Creek. By the way, how did you pick the name Silver Creek?
It is the most difficult place I have ever fished, so I hope someday to be good enough to consistenly catch fish there.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

I asked because I have a Silver Creek up here where I live now and one where I used to fish Largemouth all the time. It seems there are a bunch of them. In fact my insurance guy is Silver Creek Insurance.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

I believe it is called "Cajun Red". What I was looking for was actual experiences using this red line. I am well aware that blue light penetrates deepest in distilled water (I have a PhD in Limnology) but there are many dissolved substances that can absorb and alter the penetration ability of various wavelengths of light.
An example from my previous experience throwing spinners for Michigan steelhead and trout: chrome or nickel plated spinners appeared a dull brown in the waters we fished, while silver plated blades flashed bright white. Not at all the way they appeared in air. We caught so many more fish on silver bladed spinners than on nickel that we went to silver exclusively.
We plated them ourselves using a 6 volt battery, silver nitrate and a pre-1965 dime.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

Silver,

Thanks for the info and the link. I will read the article when I get some more time. I think I may have read it once before, but forgot the gist of it already - perhaps replaced by the awe of reading about the eyesight and lives of mantis shrimp.
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

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Originally Posted by Bigdog2421 View Post
I have a PhD in Limnology
Me too! oh...no...that's limbology. Getting my flies outta the limbs.

sorry bigdog...
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

No problem. I guess I have my answer. No one has tried Cajun Red for fly tippet yet. Guess I will get sone and give it a whirl. Probably won't work, but if it does it sounds like it will turn the scientific world upside down!
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Red Tippets

Exactly. Red line does NOT disappear underwater. In fact, an opaque red will show up much more prominently against most underwater backgrounds than a translucent blue or green line, or a clear line. It just won't look red, instead it will look like a very dark gray. So why would you want to use a red line instead of a blue, green, or clear line? At best, the fish don't care. At worst, they'll be more line shy if you're using the red. It really is a gimmick to attract anglers.
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