The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussions regarding fly fishing as a whole. Ask questions. Get answers...

Like Tree7Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 10:55 AM
futuramille's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Greenville South Carolina
Posts: 925
futuramille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud offuturamille has much to be proud of
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

I use a heavier single hand 9.5' 5/6 that I've been waving about for some 25 years and its ballanced, right at the tip of the cork. I have a couple other newer, lighter rods with reels that don't ballance and though they cast well enough.. I don't want to spend all day with them. They stay in thier rod tubes for the most part. It might be bias, it might be "old friend" confidence, it could be that ballanced is better...for me.
__________________
JJ
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 11:10 AM
Rip Tide's Avatar
Senior Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: quiet corner, ct
Posts: 5,410
Rip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond reputeRip Tide has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

When you have a rod that needs extra weight to balance correctly, you know it.
I can think of at least 5 of my rods where the reel choice makes a difference.
Vintage glass, bamboo, and a 10' IM6.
__________________
The simpler the outfit, the more skill it takes to manage it, and the more pleasure one gets in his achievements.” --- Horace Kephart
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 02:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,039
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

"BALANCING A FLY ROD

In 1889 R. C. Leonard, a tournament caster, stepped to the platform without a reel on his rod and simply coiled the line at his feet. With that abbreviated rig he proceeded to smash all existing distance records, including his own, by a wide margin. It was a shocking thing to competitors and spectators alike. It was a momentous discovery from which not only tournament casters but fishermen as well should have profited. That early-day pioneer discovered an extremely important principle in rod dynamics. It amounts to this: That the caster must move the useless weight below the hand as well as the useful weight above the hand; that the removal of dead weight below the hand helped to overcome inertia more quickly, increasing the tip speed, thus imparting a greater velocity to the projectile or fly line. It should have been a valuable lesson to everyone, but it wasn’t. It remained only among the tournament casters for many years.

If you examine the books and catalogs of those early days you will discover that manufacturers and fishermen-writers discussed very learnedly and extensively such things as “fulcrum point,” “counterpoise,” “balancing the fly rod,” and “letting the rod do the work,” none of which has any merit whatsoever. Not until very recently has there been an awareness of this valid principle. It is evidenced by the availability of numerous fine, very lightweight reels on the market today. In view of this trend I should not be discussing this subject at all, except for the fact that I am frequently surprised by the comments of writers and the recommendations of suppliers or manufacturers prescribing a specific size and weight of reel to balance a particular rod. There can be no such thing as balance in a fly rod. There can never be a fixed “fulcrum point.” Every inch that the cast is lengthened or shortened changes the alleged balance and every unnecessary ounce in an unnecessarily heavy reel dampens and degrades the cast. If you wish to explore this a little further, you can try an experiment as I did some years ago. If you have or can borrow enough reels, let us say in two-ounce increments, all the way from the lightest, about two ounces, to something about eight or nine ounces, you will have enough to make the experiment. Use the same weight of line on the same rod for all trials. With the lightest reels the casts are sharply and cleanly delivered flat out with enough velocity to turn over the leaders. You also get a tighter front bow if you want it. As the reels get heavier there is a noticeable lagging in the forward loop until finally with the heaviest reel there is decided dropping of the loop, and probably a failure to turn over the leader properly. This effect is most pronounced on long casts. And consider how much worse it could be with those reels that were manufactured with a hollow arbor into which the purchaser was urged to pour lead pellets through a little trapdoor in order to correct the balance of his fly rod!

You can suit yourself about these matters but for me there is only one sound system and that is: Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be . . . ."

~ Vincent C. Marinaro, "In the Ring of the Rise," Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, copyright 1976, pp. 39-41.
wannafish likes this.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 181
pegboy1 has a spectacular aura aboutpegboy1 has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankB2 View Post
The Borgers have been saying balancing a reel makes no difference in casting distance.
I think it was a Borger who wrote the article, but was not about distance rather about rods in general. I believe he was making a point that tip heavy rods will feel tip heavy no matter what the reel weight.

And silver creek...I tend to agree with your post. A heavier reel only makes for a heavier rod IMHO.
__________________
FP
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 120
bradyb will become famous soon enoughbradyb will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

For those of us that fish more than we cast, this idea that balance does not benefit you throughout the day, remains a ridiculous notion. All I can say is if a balanced rig is not important to you, you have never spent 6 hours on a river swinging a fly with a 13'-15'+ rod.
Rip Tide likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,039
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Personally, I like the lightest rod and reel combination and I don't pay that much attention to "balance".

The concept of rod/reel balance is a carry over from spinning and casting rods. Since the line has very little weight in these two systems, the rod/reel balance point remains relatively constant no matter how far the cast. Your hand location is also fixed on these rods since you need a digit from the casting hand on the reel to release the line. You cannot move it up or down on the grip to adjust the "balance" point.

Secondly, and most important, the fulcrum of the cast with a spinning or casting rod revolves around the point where the rod is held. You flick the rod with your wrist. The weight of the bait and rod end on one side of the fulcrum actually does balance the weight of the reel and rod on the other side. Therefore, the balance point is a valid concept and much more important with spinning/casting rods and reels.

Additionally, the concept of a fly line mass alone balancing with a fly rod is incomplete because fly line velocity is much more important than line weight in flexing the rod. What bends the rod is energy and that is a combination of both line mass and line velocity. If we double line mass and keep velocity the same, the energy will double. But if we keep line mass the same but double velocity, the energy will be 2x2 or 4 times as great. So if we double haul, we increase the energy and momentum pulling on the rod tip without decreasing the line mass on the opposite side of the "balance" point.

Unlike a spinning rod that casts a line with virtually no mass, with a fly fishing outfit you are casting a line with greater mass. Balance is not static as you imagine it. It changes with how much line is out and also with the flex of the rod which is really the line's momentum and energy resisting the pull of the rod. So there is a force pulling on the rod tip. This force is no different than gravity pulling on the end of the rod except that it alternates with the to and fro pull of the line much like an alternating current. So how can a "rod" be balanced with a "reel" when this is a dynamic relationship that is constantly varying with the amount of line mass off of the reel, line velocity, and the length of the cast?

The longer the cast, the lighter the reel end of the rod becomes and the greater the variation of the force on the rod tip. I suppose that if you make very long casts on a routine basis, you might prefer a heavier reel to counter the forces on the rod tip but that does not mean that this is the ideal reel for another individual.

Unlike spin or bait casting, in fly casting balance will also vary with how high up on the grip, you prefer to hold the rod. Since the reel end of the rod is by far the heaviest portion of the rod reel combo, this affects the static balance point of the rod reel combo and determines whether the rod/reel combo feels tip heavy or tip light.

Finally, you are assuming that the "balance" point of the rod comes into play when we cast. It is really important only if the fulcrum point of the cast is constant at or near the balance point of the rod as it is with spin fishing.

When we cast, we generally keep our wrist locked throughout most of the casting motion so that there is no fulcrum point at the wrist or near the balance point of the rod. Most of the power and movement for the cast occurs at the elbow and the shoulder. So the extra weight of a reel is not behind the fulcrum with the rod tip being ahead of the fulcrum. In reality, with the major fulcrum points at the elbow and the shoulder when the wrist is locked, both the rod and the reel are on the same side of the major fulcrum points of the cast.

Therefore in my view, both the rod and the reel add to the amount of mass that needs to be moved in order to make the cast and this moving mass is on the same side of the fulcrum points. This moving mass needs to be countered by the muscles of our arm and shoulder which really provide the energy for the cast. Our forearm, and hand muscles provide the fine motor control that provides the accuracy for our cast.

This last consideration is why I believe that I find light reel and rod combos the easiest to cast. If you are a wrist caster, then the fulcrum point is at the wrist with the reel on one side and the rod tip on the other. This may be why you prefer a heavier reel.

In my view, rod/reel balance in casting is a personal preference without a single right answer. It depends on how we prefer to cast and the distances we prefer.

Balance in fishing is determined by where we hold the rod and what angle we want the rod to be at. For example, if short line or high stick nymph and we hold an elevated rod tip, an outfit that is tip light so that the reel is heavier is easier to hold in a tip up position. Then I can see that balance is important, not for casting , but for fishing!

In my view, rod/reel balance in casting & fishing is a personal preference without a single right answer. It depends on how we prefer to cast, the distances we fish at, and how we want to hold the rod. For most fly fishers that fish all all distances using all methods, balance is an outdated concept. What they will find least tiring is a tip light rod with a light reel to reduce overall mass that must be manipulated in casting and fishing.

PS - Fly rods are actually easier to cast without a reel. Go outside and try it buy putting the reel on the ground and you will find the Vincent C. Marinaro in my previous post is correct. You can cast further without the reel.
fishiowa likes this.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 181
pegboy1 has a spectacular aura aboutpegboy1 has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

HERES THE ARTICLE FOR THOSE INTERESTED:

Sexyrod

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb View Post
For those of us that fish more than we cast, this idea that balance does not benefit you throughout the day, remains a ridiculous notion. All I can say is if a balanced rig is not important to you, you have never spent 6 hours on a river swinging a fly with a 13'-15'+ rod.
Since I have never cast a spey, or switch rod I can not comment on it one way or the other. I am speaking of one handers.
__________________
FP
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,039
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

I agree with Sexy Loops on rod balance.

The reason I like tip light rods especially for longer rods is that a rod is a lever. We are one end and the line is at another. Every gram of mass that is at the end of the rod opposite us is useless mass that we have to move every time we move the rod. It makes us do extra work (applying extra force over a distance) to move the same amount of fly line

It is a no brainer. You cannot fool physics. If two rods are equal in casting and fishing, the lighter rod over all and especially the tip light rod will be less tiring to both cast and fish.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 181
pegboy1 has a spectacular aura aboutpegboy1 has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
Personally, I like the lightest rod and reel combination ..................balance is an outdated concept. What they will find least tiring is a tip light rod with a light reel to reduce overall mass that must be manipulated in casting and fishing.
+1 I couldn't agree more.
__________________
FP
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:24 PM
wjc wjc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south florida
Posts: 1,444
wjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant future
Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

The really important thing to balance is the weight of the line being cast to the power of the rod. THAT balance is why there are so many overlining/underlining questions and one that is not possible to answer for another person.

It all depends on the amount of line one like to keep in the air prior to the final cast. Which in turn is determined in large part by how far away from the fish the fisherman like to be. Whch is often determined by what he is fishing for and where and how, and is also tremendously influenced by how long the head is and what sort of taper it has.

Pegboy, cheeze and rice ! , put up what state you're from.
__________________
http://www.miterclamp.com/Images/N_Amer_FF.jpg Cheers, Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TFO BVK Rod Balance echosystm Fly Rods 3 08-19-2011 11:38 PM
airflo balance reels ? Leahcim Fly Reels 10 04-19-2010 08:20 AM
rod-reel balance...help lefty2 General Discussion 22 10-20-2009 06:50 PM
Weight vs. Balance Sep Fly Reels 5 02-03-2009 12:12 AM
Fly Rod and Reel Balance mikesalmon General Discussion 47 01-19-2009 10:18 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.