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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2012, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

I think that "balance" between rod and reel is important, but only to a point.
What happens when the position of your hand ("the fulcrum" if you will) changes on the grip and is not on the top end of the cork?
I say the top end of the grip because that's the most commonly accepted and used grip that most of us started with. Over the years my hand placement on the grip has shifted from the top end of the cork all the way to the bottom where it's just slightly above the threads on my reel seat (down locking).
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
I will give you this in that the rod does store energy and releases it to the fly line but once the line is moving it's simple momentum that carries things along moderated by the drag of the air, wind, wobble, your tight loop or not, etc
That is how I view it as a layman without a college education. Not all of the kinetic energy developed though our bodies winds up in the rod, nor does all that which is in the rod transfer to the line. Therefore, line momentum is the final result of KE after the cast has been completed.
Quote:
If it was momentum we could not shoot line because adding mass would have to decrease velocity linearly to keep the momentum constant after the haul.
The fly leg velocity does indeed decrease when we shoot line and increases again after we clamp it due to Newton's 2nd law , the conservation of momentum, and is why bull whips are tapered. As mass decreases, velocity increases.

Drag does indeed increase as the square of it's velocity, which means that the faster the loop speed the greater the drag. Since drag, on a non shooting line acts primarily on the loop face, the surface area of that loop face for practical purposes is what slows the line the most.

That is another reason for not trying to shoot line into a head wind. You shoot line with the wind into the backcast and shoot nothing into it. Otherwise, you are just pissing into the wind.

Since surface area is strictly a multiplication formula, whereas volume (and consequently mass) is a squared function of radius, the drag is not increased that much between a 6 wt line and an 8 wt line - not nearly so much as the differences in mass. Therefore, 8 wt lines carry better into the wind than 6 wt lines.

Quote:
So as not to bore everyone, Chuck and I are discussing by PM.
That's too bad. Give us a final synopsis please, 25 words or more.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post

That's too bad. Give us a final synopsis please, 25 words or more.
We agreed to disagree.

A fly line has both Momentum and KE, but I still believe it is KE and not momentum that determines casting distance and is the reason that a double haul can increase the distance of a cast much greater than the change in momentum would predict.

My point is that if you have two bullets with identical shapes so aerodynamic drag is identical, but one bullet is twice as dense as the the other, so bullet A has a mass of 1M and the heavier bullet B a mass of 2M; and bullet A travels twice as fast (2V) as bullet B (1V), they have identical momentum 2MV. But the lighter bullet A has twice the kinetic energy (4MVV) as bullet B (2MVV).

Which bullet goes farther when shot at the same trajectory? If momentum determined distance, both bullets would go the same distance. I believe that the faster bullet will go farther because it can travel farther before gravity causes both bullets to hit the ground. Theoretically they will hit the ground at the same time.

Similarly, I believe that KE determines the distance of a fly cast. When everything else is the same, increasing the velocity will increase the casting distance. Under perfect conditions, momentum predicts the increase will be linear and KE predicts it will increase by the square effect.

Go out and cast to see which prediction conforms to reality.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2012, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Silver,

Quote:
Go out and cast to see which prediction conforms to reality.
I don't have to. I've been throwing flies since 1957 and double hauling since 1958.

A good double haul will increase distance by around 30% with top casters. Check out the sexyloops "line hand in pocket" casting competition among European competitive distance casters most with national distance casting titles.

So lets run some numbers according to the formulas. Figure a tip speed of 90mph and a haul of 30 mph and a line wt of 100 gr. to keep the math simple.

without haul Momentum = 90 x 100gr or 9,000

with haul Momentum= 120 x 100 or 12,000


without haul kinetic= 90 x 90 x100 / 2 = 8,100 x 100gr/2 or 405,000
with haul kinetic= 120 x 120 x 100gr /2 = 14,400 x 100gr/2 or 720,000



So using momentum we show a 33% increase in force with the haul.

Using Kinetic energy we show a 78% increase in force with the haul.

With a little more haul speed we'd be hitting that 180' mark with a 5 wt.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2012, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Jim.

You have ignored aerodynamic drag which also increases with V squared.

Because of the square effect of drag, you need the square effect of energy to counteract it. The linear effect of momentum won't do it when the opposing force increase by the square of velocity.

That is why a car engine only uses 5O HP to go at 50 MPH but takes 300+ HP to go 150 MPH. If it were linear as in your example it would only take 150 HP to go 150 mph.

The seemingly "disproportionate increase" in KE is needed because of the "identical disproportionate increase" in drag effect of the line, leader and fly that increases with the square of velocity. For the same reason, it is much more difficult to cast against the wind because an opposing wind is additive to drag by the square effect.

Why do two bullets of identical momentum and aerodynamic drag travel different distances as in my previous example if distance varied by momentum alone? That I don't understand, if distance varies with momentum, and I've not gotten a reply on that point. No one has shown me that my contention is either wrong, or explained how identical momentums cause different distances.

It seems to me that this is proof that is is not momentum which determines distance, and yet this is conveniently ignored and never addressed.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2012, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Energy is the capacity to do work, nothing more, nothing less. Momentum is the product of mass, or your fly line, multipled times the velocity it achieves during the cast, and has a vectored direction involved and this happens to be the definition of Momentum, right out of most any Physics book, more or less. Energy is a scalar amount that is just a capability or capacity so this situation doesn't pass the Energy test at all.

Check out the last link above in my post as the very learned author of that describes the physics of casting above and beyond and it's momentum that's the key as he so aptly says and describes!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinner View Post
I think the burning question here is, front or back pocket?
Good one
Naturally you would have to put it in The Front Pocket otherwise it would obvisouly look as if something else has occurred.

Even though I have seen the Statement mentioned to me it's like a pocket with a hole,it won't hold The Reel,as I like a balanced setup.
Then again I go against The Rule of Thumb as I run 2 9/10 Reels on both a 9ft6" & a 10ft Rod & even though a mate says they are too big they balance great,I don't find them heavy as the Reels are pretty well Skeletonized making them lighter,also the advantage is I can quickly load the loose line onto The Spool Quicker as I'm not forever winding to get The Hooked Fish onto The Reel.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2012, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Is that a 5/6 weight in your pocket...or are you just happy to see me.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2012, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

That's one Happy Frog!
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Reels to balance a rod?

Quote:
I believe that the faster bullet will go farther because it can travel farther before gravity causes both bullets to hit the ground.
Then why are bullets made of lead and not aluminum? Why do Wifflle balls with no holes in them go 40 feet instead of 400 like real baseballs or those hollow plastic golf balls go 20 yards instead of 400 like real ones?

Instead of speculating, here are actual ballistics on two bullets from here; a fast light one and a heavy slow one.

Rifle Ballistics Summary

Remington .223-------------------------------------- Winchester Mag .338


Muzzle velocity-------3,550 ft/sec-------------------------2,780 ft/sec

Velocity @ 200 yds---2,430 ft/sec-------------------------2,374 ft/sec

% of initial velocity------68%------------------------------85%
remaining @200 yds

Muzzle energy-------1,259 ft/lbs-----------------------------3.860 fl/lbs

energy @ 200 yds-----590 ft/lbs-----------------------------2,815 ft/lbs

% energy remaining
at 200 yds-------------47%--------------------------------------73%


Estimated max range* 3 miles-----------------------------------5 miles

* TPWD: Firearms - Distances Bullets Travel

Gravity is constant; the coefficient of drag is constant though the bigger bullet is subject to a greater total drag force due to larger surface area. Yet the slower, heavier bullet is traveling nearly as fast as the faster one after traveling only 1.2% of the faster bullet's maximum range (or 0.7% of the slower bullet's mximum range).

If compared to a fly cast that would equal about 10 to 15 inches on a 100 foot cast.

But why muddy the issue of fly casting with bullets - unless someone tries to move you out of "The Pocket" on Nine Mile Bank when you were there first.

Quote:
With a little more haul speed we'd be hitting that 180' mark with a 5 wt.
Quote:
Jim.
You have ignored aerodynamic drag which also increases with V squared.
I never forget aerodynamic drag living with it daily down here. (Note the grins.)

I think what you may be ignoring is that kinetic energy also DECREASES as the square of its lost velocity. (See the percentage losses in the comparison of actual ballistics in the bullet analogy).

And, equally important, that drag is dependent on surface area (no squared multiplier) whereas mass depends on volume which is dependant on a squared multiplier (radius squared). Therefore, drag influences the lighter of two lines of the same density far more than the heavier one with an increased mass/surface area ratio.

That is why surf fly guys use 10 wts and not 5 weighs when fishing for 5 lb blues and stripers even when using steamlined flies.

As for the original question, I am working on a remote operated reel to be worn on one's wader belt so it will not add weight to the rod and will enable longer days of blind casting without too much exertion. I'm thinking that the best way is with a waterproof remote that can be held in the mouth like a cigar and clamped on to retrieve. But other alternatives are welcomed.
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Last edited by wjc; 03-01-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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