Reels to balance a rod?

pegboy1

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Ran across this statement in an article on rod balance and assessing a fly rod.
I must say, I am in total agreement with this statement, and was wondering what others think?

"I can honestly say that there has been a whole heap of rubbish talked about using a reel to balance the rod. The reel does not balance the rod, it is irrelevant: take it off and stick it in your pocket and you'll see what I mean. A rod which is 'tip-heavy' is one which feels unnecessarily heavy up top and will never feel pleasant, no matter how heavy a reel you stick on the other end."
 

wjc

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I would agree with that statement to a point. I wouldn't want to put a Gulfstream on my Leonard 7' rod, but then even Forrest Gump wouldn't do that. As far as I'm concerned, lighter reels are obviously easier on the muscles for casting, just as lighter rods and lines are. But I pick the rod and reel for the fish the conditions and the pocketbook at the time. I have never stuck a reel on a rod to balance it before so I really have no idea where it "should" balance at.

In distance casting competitions, you are required to have the line on a reel attached to a rod. So I would guess that a line on the floor without a reel would give that guy an advantage. Kind of shoots down the balance theory.

Cheers,
Jim
 

Ard

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Rather than to disagree outright with someone making such a 'Devils Advocate' type of statement I will say this. The person who authored that remark is free to do exactly as he professes, however I do hope that not too many will take the statement seriously.

If you wish to put your reel in your pocket then you are welcome to do so. If you wish to use a 2.5 ounce reel mounted to a 10 foot 6 weight rod you may do so. In turn, if you wish to place an 11 ounce Odyssey on the seat of a 6'6" bamboo flea rod, you may in fact do so.

When the author or any of the converts to this new & novel approach to matching their tackle use their outfits I wish them all the best.

Now let me address that whole 'rubbish' thing.......................... :)

 

Guest1

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I would agree with that statement to a point. Cheers,
Jim
Same here. Except the Cheers Jim part. As far as single hand rods go, it's hard to screw up bad enough you could actually tell you did. Maybe something like a PENN 4GAR on a 7' 6" 4wt. might do it, but who would do that Mom doesn't make wear a helmet and ride the short bus?

Now here's the "to a point" part. If you have a double hand rod, you need to get it to balance so that it is balanced where your top hand is at the top of the top grip and the line out and swinging. This actually matters unlike most of this single hand noinsense. Finding a reel in todays "It's so light a good breeze will blow it away" and "ported to the point it makes a wiffle ball look solid" world we now live in, is harder than finding Bigfoot and costs more money than the last Bigfoot TV show I saw. Tibor makes a spey reel that's 12.5 ounces and will only set you back $850.oo. To top it off, 6 years from now they may not have parts for it. I'm very dissapointed with Tibor. I told them so on the phone just for good measure. Even more annoying, that still may not be heavy enough. There is a market driven pile of nonsense causing reel manufacturers to rush headlong into making the lightest reels they can. For what? It doesn't make any real sense with a singlehand rod, and they are sure not helping the spey guys out. Companies that make Spey Reels that are heavy enough still costs you the best part of a grand and may give you the Tibor middle finger salute. Can you say E Bay? :mad:
 

bradyb

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The lighter your entire setup is, balance is less of an issue. The bigger and heavier your setup becomes, balance becomes increasingly noticeable and important, particularly on long days. Ard will be able to testify with his 15' Winston, a notoriously tip heavy rod. To shrug that rod off as tip heavy and therefore unpleasant no matter what, is pure bologna. Properly weighted in the rear, it is not troublesome in the slightest. To say reel weight makes no difference whatsoever is hogwash.
 

wabi

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I used to worry about balancing the rod/reel combo, but not so much anymore.
Usually a reel rated for the same line as the rod is close enough to suit me.
 

FrankB2

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I have a premium 9' 5wt, and liked it much better with a reel that is an ounce heavier than the original. The Borgers have been saying balancing a reel makes no difference in casting distance, and they use a robotic device to demostrate this. I'm sure the robots were glad to hear this, and if they had pockets, well.... :D I'm not a robot, and my tendons feel the difference when reel weight is varied.
 

bigjim5589

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I'll also agree, but only to an extent. I'm not putting my reel in my pocket. I'll also agree with it being more important to have some degree of balance, the heavier the rod. For example, on my 10 wt, I have a reel that's intended for a 11/12 wt rod. I also have the same reel listed as a 9/10 wt reel. The slightly larger reel is slightly heavier, but on that rod is more comfortable for me to cast all day, as it balances with that rod better. Sure, I can use either reel, and the lighter reel reduces the overall weight, but it still doesn't feel any better to me for casting. I think that's important too.

This balance & weight thing can be taken to extremes one way or the other, and individually we all have a comfort zone. For me, as long as I'm comfortable with the combination I'm using, I don't really care about actual weight or perfect balance. :biggrin:
 

futuramille

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I use a heavier single hand 9.5' 5/6 that I've been waving about for some 25 years and its ballanced, right at the tip of the cork. I have a couple other newer, lighter rods with reels that don't ballance and though they cast well enough.. I don't want to spend all day with them. They stay in thier rod tubes for the most part. It might be bias, it might be "old friend" confidence, it could be that ballanced is better...for me.
 

Rip Tide

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When you have a rod that needs extra weight to balance correctly, you know it.
I can think of at least 5 of my rods where the reel choice makes a difference.
Vintage glass, bamboo, and a 10' IM6.
 

silver creek

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"BALANCING A FLY ROD

In 1889 R. C. Leonard, a tournament caster, stepped to the platform without a reel on his rod and simply coiled the line at his feet. With that abbreviated rig he proceeded to smash all existing distance records, including his own, by a wide margin. It was a shocking thing to competitors and spectators alike. It was a momentous discovery from which not only tournament casters but fishermen as well should have profited. That early-day pioneer discovered an extremely important principle in rod dynamics. It amounts to this: That the caster must move the useless weight below the hand as well as the useful weight above the hand; that the removal of dead weight below the hand helped to overcome inertia more quickly, increasing the tip speed, thus imparting a greater velocity to the projectile or fly line. It should have been a valuable lesson to everyone, but it wasn’t. It remained only among the tournament casters for many years.

If you examine the books and catalogs of those early days you will discover that manufacturers and fishermen-writers discussed very learnedly and extensively such things as “fulcrum point,” “counterpoise,” “balancing the fly rod,” and “letting the rod do the work,” none of which has any merit whatsoever. Not until very recently has there been an awareness of this valid principle. It is evidenced by the availability of numerous fine, very lightweight reels on the market today. In view of this trend I should not be discussing this subject at all, except for the fact that I am frequently surprised by the comments of writers and the recommendations of suppliers or manufacturers prescribing a specific size and weight of reel to balance a particular rod. There can be no such thing as balance in a fly rod. There can never be a fixed “fulcrum point.” Every inch that the cast is lengthened or shortened changes the alleged balance and every unnecessary ounce in an unnecessarily heavy reel dampens and degrades the cast. If you wish to explore this a little further, you can try an experiment as I did some years ago. If you have or can borrow enough reels, let us say in two-ounce increments, all the way from the lightest, about two ounces, to something about eight or nine ounces, you will have enough to make the experiment. Use the same weight of line on the same rod for all trials. With the lightest reels the casts are sharply and cleanly delivered flat out with enough velocity to turn over the leaders. You also get a tighter front bow if you want it. As the reels get heavier there is a noticeable lagging in the forward loop until finally with the heaviest reel there is decided dropping of the loop, and probably a failure to turn over the leader properly. This effect is most pronounced on long casts. And consider how much worse it could be with those reels that were manufactured with a hollow arbor into which the purchaser was urged to pour lead pellets through a little trapdoor in order to correct the balance of his fly rod!

You can suit yourself about these matters but for me there is only one sound system and that is: Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be . . . ."

~ Vincent C. Marinaro, "In the Ring of the Rise," Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, copyright 1976, pp. 39-41.
 

pegboy1

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The Borgers have been saying balancing a reel makes no difference in casting distance.
I think it was a Borger who wrote the article, but was not about distance rather about rods in general. I believe he was making a point that tip heavy rods will feel tip heavy no matter what the reel weight.

And silver creek...I tend to agree with your post. A heavier reel only makes for a heavier rod IMHO.
 

bradyb

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For those of us that fish more than we cast, this idea that balance does not benefit you throughout the day, remains a ridiculous notion. All I can say is if a balanced rig is not important to you, you have never spent 6 hours on a river swinging a fly with a 13'-15'+ rod.
 

silver creek

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Personally, I like the lightest rod and reel combination and I don't pay that much attention to "balance".

The concept of rod/reel balance is a carry over from spinning and casting rods. Since the line has very little weight in these two systems, the rod/reel balance point remains relatively constant no matter how far the cast. Your hand location is also fixed on these rods since you need a digit from the casting hand on the reel to release the line. You cannot move it up or down on the grip to adjust the "balance" point.

Secondly, and most important, the fulcrum of the cast with a spinning or casting rod revolves around the point where the rod is held. You flick the rod with your wrist. The weight of the bait and rod end on one side of the fulcrum actually does balance the weight of the reel and rod on the other side. Therefore, the balance point is a valid concept and much more important with spinning/casting rods and reels.

Additionally, the concept of a fly line mass alone balancing with a fly rod is incomplete because fly line velocity is much more important than line weight in flexing the rod. What bends the rod is energy and that is a combination of both line mass and line velocity. If we double line mass and keep velocity the same, the energy will double. But if we keep line mass the same but double velocity, the energy will be 2x2 or 4 times as great. So if we double haul, we increase the energy and momentum pulling on the rod tip without decreasing the line mass on the opposite side of the "balance" point.

Unlike a spinning rod that casts a line with virtually no mass, with a fly fishing outfit you are casting a line with greater mass. Balance is not static as you imagine it. It changes with how much line is out and also with the flex of the rod which is really the line's momentum and energy resisting the pull of the rod. So there is a force pulling on the rod tip. This force is no different than gravity pulling on the end of the rod except that it alternates with the to and fro pull of the line much like an alternating current. So how can a "rod" be balanced with a "reel" when this is a dynamic relationship that is constantly varying with the amount of line mass off of the reel, line velocity, and the length of the cast?

The longer the cast, the lighter the reel end of the rod becomes and the greater the variation of the force on the rod tip. I suppose that if you make very long casts on a routine basis, you might prefer a heavier reel to counter the forces on the rod tip but that does not mean that this is the ideal reel for another individual.

Unlike spin or bait casting, in fly casting balance will also vary with how high up on the grip, you prefer to hold the rod. Since the reel end of the rod is by far the heaviest portion of the rod reel combo, this affects the static balance point of the rod reel combo and determines whether the rod/reel combo feels tip heavy or tip light.

Finally, you are assuming that the "balance" point of the rod comes into play when we cast. It is really important only if the fulcrum point of the cast is constant at or near the balance point of the rod as it is with spin fishing.

When we cast, we generally keep our wrist locked throughout most of the casting motion so that there is no fulcrum point at the wrist or near the balance point of the rod. Most of the power and movement for the cast occurs at the elbow and the shoulder. So the extra weight of a reel is not behind the fulcrum with the rod tip being ahead of the fulcrum. In reality, with the major fulcrum points at the elbow and the shoulder when the wrist is locked, both the rod and the reel are on the same side of the major fulcrum points of the cast.

Therefore in my view, both the rod and the reel add to the amount of mass that needs to be moved in order to make the cast and this moving mass is on the same side of the fulcrum points. This moving mass needs to be countered by the muscles of our arm and shoulder which really provide the energy for the cast. Our forearm, and hand muscles provide the fine motor control that provides the accuracy for our cast.

This last consideration is why I believe that I find light reel and rod combos the easiest to cast. If you are a wrist caster, then the fulcrum point is at the wrist with the reel on one side and the rod tip on the other. This may be why you prefer a heavier reel.

In my view, rod/reel balance in casting is a personal preference without a single right answer. It depends on how we prefer to cast and the distances we prefer.

Balance in fishing is determined by where we hold the rod and what angle we want the rod to be at. For example, if short line or high stick nymph and we hold an elevated rod tip, an outfit that is tip light so that the reel is heavier is easier to hold in a tip up position. Then I can see that balance is important, not for casting , but for fishing!

In my view, rod/reel balance in casting & fishing is a personal preference without a single right answer. It depends on how we prefer to cast, the distances we fish at, and how we want to hold the rod. For most fly fishers that fish all all distances using all methods, balance is an outdated concept. What they will find least tiring is a tip light rod with a light reel to reduce overall mass that must be manipulated in casting and fishing.

PS - Fly rods are actually easier to cast without a reel. Go outside and try it buy putting the reel on the ground and you will find the Vincent C. Marinaro in my previous post is correct. You can cast further without the reel.
 

pegboy1

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HERES THE ARTICLE FOR THOSE INTERESTED:

Sexyrod

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

For those of us that fish more than we cast, this idea that balance does not benefit you throughout the day, remains a ridiculous notion. All I can say is if a balanced rig is not important to you, you have never spent 6 hours on a river swinging a fly with a 13'-15'+ rod.
Since I have never cast a spey, or switch rod I can not comment on it one way or the other. I am speaking of one handers.
 

silver creek

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I agree with Sexy Loops on rod balance.

The reason I like tip light rods especially for longer rods is that a rod is a lever. We are one end and the line is at another. Every gram of mass that is at the end of the rod opposite us is useless mass that we have to move every time we move the rod. It makes us do extra work (applying extra force over a distance) to move the same amount of fly line

It is a no brainer. You cannot fool physics. If two rods are equal in casting and fishing, the lighter rod over all and especially the tip light rod will be less tiring to both cast and fish.
 

pegboy1

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Personally, I like the lightest rod and reel combination ..................balance is an outdated concept. What they will find least tiring is a tip light rod with a light reel to reduce overall mass that must be manipulated in casting and fishing.
+1 I couldn't agree more.
 

wjc

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The really important thing to balance is the weight of the line being cast to the power of the rod. THAT balance is why there are so many overlining/underlining questions and one that is not possible to answer for another person.

It all depends on the amount of line one like to keep in the air prior to the final cast. Which in turn is determined in large part by how far away from the fish the fisherman like to be. Whch is often determined by what he is fishing for and where and how, and is also tremendously influenced by how long the head is and what sort of taper it has.

Pegboy, cheeze and rice ! , put up what state you're from.
 
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