HELP!! ADVANCED "How to" fly fishing books?

[dcmcmill]

Gents,

I have been fly fishing for a few years now and still struggle to routinely land fish. I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction to get questions like these below answered. I was thinking that there must be a solid book out there for advanced fly fishing.

1) what procedure and steps should i go through below getting into the river? What features in the water should i be looking for to spot where fish collect? What should i stay away from? How do i enter the water to approach the chosen spot? how far away should i stand? how can i use a river map to determine where decent spots might be? what should i be looking for before i get in the water?

2) How do i troubleshoot my fly/line/weight set-up to ensure that i am fishing at the right depth?

3) how do i determine which casting method to use? How do i determine which style of retrieval to use based on the bends and feature of the river?

Bottom line: I get out fished all the time by more experienced guys and I have no clue why. I have always been a pretty good student and enjoy taking an academic approach. My gut instinct tells me that I have a very poor "strategy"

HELP ME OUT!

dustin

[stenacron]

Dustin,

It seems like you're asking for very specific advice, but at the same time trying to encompass a broad category. I'll try to offer up some quick points on your questions, but truly – EXPERIENCE is the best teacher. Getting out-fished by better anglers really is a blessing in disguise… watch these guys, see how they approach holding areas, ask questions… I'm sure you'll be surprised to find out that there is any number of "little things" that these guys are doing (well) that will help you immensely. A little knowledge goes a long way, especially in fly fishing! I've been doing this a long time and still learn something new literally every time I venture out onto the water. The ability to learn from your experiences and apply them to your next trip out is what separates "catching" from "fishing."


-1) what procedure and steps should i go through below getting into the river? What features in the water should i be looking for to spot where fish collect? What should i stay away from? How do i enter the water to approach the chosen spot? how far away should i stand? how can i use a river map to determine where decent spots might be? what should i be looking for before i get in the water?

A: Never tie on a fly or step into the river without surveying the situation. Look for insects in the air, nymphs staging along the shoreline, insect-eating birds flitting about, flashing/rising fish… any and all of these can tip you off as to where to begin or what may be about to happen.

The best fish collect in places where they can do the least amount of work and still have their food source funneled to them. Riffles and pocket water is a great place to start… you can get close to your quarry without spooking them and a lot of anglers are "hole hoppers" that just pass right by these areas.


-2) How do i troubleshoot my fly/line/weight set-up to ensure that i am fishing at the right depth?

A: This will all be water/species/fly type specific… rivers vs lakes vs streams… tarpon vs trout vs bluegill… nymphs vs streamers vs dries. It's just too broad a topic here without knowing more details. Most anglers have specific rod combos for different species or situations.


-3) how do i determine which casting method to use? How do i determine which style of retrieval to use based on the bends and feature of the river?

A: Casting method is determined by a combination of your surroundings and the type of fly you're fishing. Again this is a broad topic with dozens of correct answers. In the end the best casting method is the one that delivers your fly to the fish in a natural manner, regardless of how it looks. In my experience, most anglers that are just getting started try to work with too much line on the water. Nymphing for example; rarely do I have more than 10-15 feet of fly line off the rod tip when nymphing. In fact, on smaller stream I probably have less than 3-4 feet of line out when most fish are hooked. Having said that, different conditions and/or bodies of water call for different tactics.

[BigCliff]

We can try all we want, but I think you'd be best off getting some real one-on-one instruction. I'd suggest hiring a guide who's willing to teach you how to best fish the way you usually fish (wading rivers, or whatever).

If you don't want to go that route, you might be a good fit for one of Orvis' FF201 classes- Orvis Announces Free Fly Fishing Classes | MidCurrent

For a video, here's one of the best I know of for the strategic questions you're asking-

Amazon.com: Successful Fly Fishing Strategies: Gary Lafontaine, Dick Sharon, Jeffrey Pill: Movies & TV

Amazon.com: Successful Fly Fishing Strategies: Gary Lafontaine, Dick Sharon, Jeffrey Pill: Movies & TV

[silver creek]

I thing every newbie and intermediate fly fisher would like to know the answer to your questions.

There are general things you can do to become a better fish like learning casting skills. I split those into distance, accuracy and specialty casts. In addition casting is is mending, when and how. You learn these by practicing and learning when to apply them.

I go to Montana every year with a very good fly fisher, but he is not very interested in specialty casts and most of the time his fishing casts are well within his skill level. However, in one instance he found a fish rising in a seam that was across a wide area of fast water. Whenever he cast to the fish, the line would land on the fast water and he would get instant drag so he called me over for a try. As soon as I saw the situation, I knew he could catch the fish with either a puddle cast or a pile cast. He had never done either so he was hesitant to try so we did a few trial casts away from the fish. His first cast was off but the second nailed the fish. The lesson is that unless you know what cast to do in each situation, you will not catch the fish even if your skill level is sufficient.

So improve your physical skills.

Second are more specific knowledge based skills such as what fly to use, and how to fish it. You can hire guides but that is expensive. A better long tern solution is to find a mentor. The key to keeping a mentor is to have him get something out of the relationship as well. Offer to drive and buy the sandwiches and drinks for lunch whenever you go.

[dcmcmill]

Originally Posted by stenacron

Dustin,

It seems like you're asking for very specific advice, but at the same time trying to encompass a broad category. I'll try to offer up some quick points on your questions, but truly – EXPERIENCE is the best teacher. Getting out-fished by better anglers really is a blessing in disguise… watch these guys, see how they approach holding areas, ask questions… I'm sure you'll be surprised to find out that there is any number of "little things" that these guys are doing (well) that will help you immensely. A little knowledge goes a long way, especially in fly fishing! I've been doing this a long time and still learn something new literally every time I venture out onto the water. The ability to learn from your experiences and apply them to your next trip out is what separates "catching" from "fishing."


-1) what procedure and steps should i go through below getting into the river? What features in the water should i be looking for to spot where fish collect? What should i stay away from? How do i enter the water to approach the chosen spot? how far away should i stand? how can i use a river map to determine where decent spots might be? what should i be looking for before i get in the water?

A: Never tie on a fly or step into the river without surveying the situation. Look for insects in the air, nymphs staging along the shoreline, insect-eating birds flitting about, flashing/rising fish… any and all of these can tip you off as to where to begin or what may be about to happen.

The best fish collect in places where they can do the least amount of work and still have their food source funneled to them. Riffles and pocket water is a great place to start… you can get close to your quarry without spooking them and a lot of anglers are "hole hoppers" that just pass right by these areas.


-2) How do i troubleshoot my fly/line/weight set-up to ensure that i am fishing at the right depth?

A: This will all be water/species/fly type specific… rivers vs lakes vs streams… tarpon vs trout vs bluegill… nymphs vs streamers vs dries. It's just too broad a topic here without knowing more details. Most anglers have specific rod combos for different species or situations.


-3) how do i determine which casting method to use? How do i determine which style of retrieval to use based on the bends and feature of the river?

A: Casting method is determined by a combination of your surroundings and the type of fly you're fishing. Again this is a broad topic with dozens of correct answers. In the end the best casting method is the one that delivers your fly to the fish in a natural manner, regardless of how it looks. In my experience, most anglers that are just getting started try to work with too much line on the water. Nymphing for example; rarely do I have more than 10-15 feet of fly line off the rod tip when nymphing. In fact, on smaller stream I probably have less than 3-4 feet of line out when most fish are hooked. Having said that, different conditions and/or bodies of water call for different tactics.

Originally Posted by BigCliff

We can try all we want, but I think you'd be best off getting some real one-on-one instruction. I'd suggest hiring a guide who's willing to teach you how to best fish the way you usually fish (wading rivers, or whatever).

If you don't want to go that route, you might be a good fit for one of Orvis' FF201 classes- Orvis Announces Free Fly Fishing Classes | MidCurrent

For a video, here's one of the best I know of for the strategic questions you're asking- Amazon.com: Successful Fly Fishing Strategies: Gary Lafontaine, Dick Sharon, Jeffrey Pill: Movies & TV

Originally Posted by silver creek

I thing every newbie and intermediate fly fisher would like to know the answer to your questions.

There are general things you can do to become a better fish like learning casting skills. I split those into distance, accuracy and specialty casts. In addition casting is is mending, when and how. You learn these by practicing and learning when to apply them.

I go to Montana every year with a very good fly fisher, but he is not very interested in specialty casts and most of the time his fishing casts are well within his skill level. However, in one instance he found a fish rising in a seam that was across a wide area of fast water. Whenever he cast to the fish, the line would land on the fast water and he would get instant drag so he called me over for a try. As soon as I saw the situation, I knew he could catch the fish with either a puddle cast or a pile cast. He had never done either so he was hesitant to try so we did a few trial casts away from the fish. His first cast was off but the second nailed the fish. The lesson is that unless you know what cast to do in each situation, you will not catch the fish even if your skill level is sufficient.

So improve your physical skills.

Second are more specific knowledge based skills such as what fly to use, and how to fish it. You can hire guides but that is expensive. A better long tern solution is to find a mentor. The key to keeping a mentor is to have him get something out of the relationship as well. Offer to drive and buy the sandwiches and drinks for lunch whenever you go.

Guys,

Thanks a ton for the help. I just realized that so much of what i asked is vague and it probably makes sense to tell you guys where i am fishing/what for. Btw, I am 27 years old and usually have to fish by myself or with other people passing by.

So i live in northern california and mainly fish the Mt. Shasta River system due to the year round cold glacier water and gorgeous scenery. The Fly Shop in Redding is my go to and i always stop there for flies and to pick their brains. Since I am usually by myself, I typically try to find somewhere to camp. My dad, who lives in Michigan got me into fly fishing roughly 3 years ago but i am on the verge of going nuts from getting out fished all the time.

RIVERS: So I mainly fish on the McCloud River, The Upper Sacramento River, the Pit River, and the Truckee River near Tahoe. I am an avid skier so I don't spend time on winter Salmon or Steelhead (i know its criminal).

GEAR: I do enjoy having nice gear so after much online research I bought a 4 wt Thomas and Thomas Helix 10 foot rod and a Sage Z-Axis 9 foot 5wt. I use an Abel Super 4 reel with a pretty cool chrome/silver finish on it for both rods. I bought all this from a reputable eBay shop for about $1200 bucks USED. the gear shouldn't be the problem. I like how the longer rod is easier to mend line with.

CURRENT ABILITY:
I know how to tie maybe 3 or 4 knots. I typically can land my fly in the correct spot in the river on my second attempt. I am pretty athletic and can cover a lot of water during the day so moving around isn't an issue. I can roll cast and standard cast, but my technique on both probably needs work. I have a decent understanding of when to use split shots, weighted lines, and how to mend based on river conditions.

NEW QUESTIONS:
- Are there any specific books or videos that discuss how to fish the types of water i am going into from an intermediate/advanced level?
- where should i be looking for fish based on the time of day and where the Sun is?
- Should i always be looking for the places that have the slower speed water?
- when/where is it good to use dry flys?
- how do you change your strategy on rivers that are mostly shaded?
- when does it make sense to use streamers? what does it mean to be "swinging a streamer"?

thanks a ton
dustin

[gatortransplant]

Check out Tom Rosenbauer's book on Prospecting for Trout, it'll teach you more about reading water.

And now on to your new questions:
-First of all, note sun position when determining your placement so you aren't silhouetting yourself/casting shadows onto where the fish will be. Trout will typically be where the feeding is best, but they won't want to be in spots with direct sunlight too often because this makes it easier for predators to spot them (particularly if the water is shallow).
-Yes, you should most often be looking for places with slower water speed HOWEVER when I say this I mean the specific places the trout are. The trout can be in the riffles but the individual lies for each trout in said riffles will be areas with slightly slower water speed to allow the trout to be comfortable while feeding (which is why it makes more sense for a fish to be sitting in front of a rock, where there is enough disturbance to slow the water down but allows the fish to see all approaching food, rather than behind a rock, though that doesnt meant there won't also be trout behind the rock...). The trout will also need good access to a hide in the event of predators, or you.
-Dry flies are best when you see fish rising. If you don't, then go with nymphs or streamers. Certainly you can try dries when fish AREN'T rising and maybe you'll get lucky and attract interest. But there is a reason that nymph fishermen tend to have the best catch rates... However, dries are super fun to use so if there is a hatch going on, try to match it and good luck. If they are rising but you can't see them eating bugs off the surface, they're probably eating emergers. Try an emerger pattern for the same species of bug you see on the surface, or just a general emerger you have confidence in.
-I don't really change my strategy except I know that I can be a little more liberal with regard to my own body placement when accounting for throwing shadows across the water. However, if there are distinctly shaded spots vs. less shaded spots, the fish will likely favor the shaded lies.
-Depending on who you ask, it is ALWAYS a good time for a streamer. You can dead-drift them, strip them, swing them, run them under an indicator, etc. There's a reason the woolly bugger, a streamer, is so popular! However, high, dirty water is particularly good for streamer fishing, such as after rain storms. During rain storms is also a good time, as usually wary fish tend to drop their guard a bit, and big fish tend to want bigger meals (though this is not always the case... I love when tiny midge patterns work ). "Swinging a streamer" is just a method of presentation where you cast across stream and mend so as to have a tight line, allowing the fly to "swing" through the water at the end of the tight line. This keeps you in connection with the fly and you should feel even the lightest of taps. This can be a great way to fish once you gain confidence in it (I'm still working on it...) but you can swing any fly. In fact, if fish are hitting emergers, a swung pheasant tail, hares-ear or prince nymph may be just the ticket and this makes for some pretty awesome takes!

For the record, this could be all wrong, but I hope some portion of this helps...


I left this part out, but am now curious... what kind of knots are you using? As an Eagle Scout I love knots, and as someone who has fished for tarpon and has family members on the board for a tarpon tournament in my home town, knots become larger than life issues I have recently learned the non-slip mono loop, which is a great knot for fishing streamers, it really imparts some extra motion in them and though I haven't had much of an opportunity to actually present it to fish yet, it looks GREAT in the water. It's also surprisingly strong (which I learned when I caught a nice solid branch-fish). Otherwise, I use the improved clinch for most tippet-to-fly knots. However, I've recently learned that the double improved clinch is on average one of the strongest knots, but the difficulty of tying it with many of the smaller flies I use keeps me happy with my usual improved clinch. I did a brief tour with the Davy knot but I would not suggest it. Speed does not make up for the number of fish you lose when the knot decides to fail, especially when using lighter tippet... I'm also a big blood-knot fan because of the combination of strength and slimness. I always like hearing what knots other fishermen use, however!

[williamhj]

x2 for Tom Rosenbauer's book(s). He's really a very good teacher. The Prospecting for Trout was helpful for me, as was The Orvis Guide to Fly Fishing and Reading Trout Streams. Also check out his podcast if you aren't listening too it already. Search for Orvis on iTunes. You can search the archives on the Orvis site too, the topics you asked about have all been covered, I believe.

Moving beyond the books and video suggestions. I've seen a bunch of groupons with great deals for guides. Perhaps they are only being offered in the Denver area, but if you see any it could be a cost-effective way to get some one-on-one teaching. A buddy and I went out recently on one of the groups-ons. It was great and I learned a lot.

[fishiowa]

Another good book for intermediate fishers is NO HATCH TO MATCH by Rich Osthoff. While we all love to fish a hatch we can't always time it right. This book gives some good strategy ideas for various conditions.

[mcnerney]

Dustin: The others have provided some solid advice to help you out. One other thing I would like to suggest is to download ITunes on your computer and then do a search for the Orvis Podcasts and download them, they are free. They go back to 2008 and Tom Rosenbauer offers some excellent tips for fly fishing in different situations, reading the water, reading rise forms, etc. Tom also has a book called Prospecting for Trout that offers some solid information:

Amazon.com: The Orvis Guide to Prospecting for Trout: How to Catch Fish When There's No Hatch to Match, Revised Edition (9781599211473): Tom Rosenbauer: Books

Amazon.com: The Orvis Guide to Prospecting for Trout: How to Catch Fish When There's No Hatch to Match, Revised Edition (9781599211473): Tom Rosenbauer: Books

[peregrines]

Dustin welcome to the forum-- you've gotten great advice from the guys hang in there. The learning curve is an ongoing process-- it sounds like you've mastered a lot of the basics now that you have the the roll and overhead casts down, and are ready to move on to the next level. On moving water you'll want to get good drag free presentations this will require mending and adding some more casts to your arsenal-- like the reach cast, (really these are just modifications of the basic overhead cast)t As far as brushing up on some theory....

A good resource for you are the techniques articles on Midcurrent Archives | MidCurrent

Start with Mending and Reading the water

and the Basic Skills section on West Fly Basic Skills | Fly Fishing | Westfly

Presenting the dry fly and wet fly articles are excellent (the wet fly articles cover nymphs and streamers too)
The books and pod casts suggested are all excellent resources (Tom Rosenbauer also has an older book called Reading Trout Streams; An Orvis Guide) you can buy used for $1.25 on Amazon

Get some hatch charts for the rivers you fish-- you'll be able to find a lot of them on line and research the major hatches a bit-- that way you'll know what to look for on the stream and be ready with the where and when to hit the hatches. (For May you may want to read up on Salmonflies and Golden Stones for starters)

After you've done some reading it's time to put this stuff to use on the water.

Look for seams where two different speeds of current meet, note how the outside of a bend differs (faster current, tends to have under cut banks and deeper water) than the inside of a bend (slower current, shallower water), look for eddies where current goes upstream, and be able to identify riffles, runs and slots and the different parts of a pool (head, tongue, tail). Think like a fish-- safety from overhead predators ( overhead cover like tree branches, deadfalls, undercut banks, "safe" water depth, or under broken water like in a riffle), ability to get food without expending a lot of energy-- resting on slow water side of current seam waiting for faster current of seam to act as conveyor belt).

How close you can wade depends on a lot of things-- fish generally face into current-- if you're fishing dry flies upstream you'll be below them. Generally, you'll be able to get a lot closer in riffles where current is faster and the surface is broken than in a slow flat pool. Try and get close-- the closer you get the less different speeds your fly line will cross, and the easier time you'll have getting a drag free drift. Also fish in streams with a faster water (steeper gradient) will let you get a bit closer and be less picky (with a generally less rich food supply) than in slower more fertile spring creeks.

While wading, move slowly and deliberately, and plan your route-- and take time to ask your self if you should be fishing where you are standing-- (you'll step in holes of deeper water from time to time while wading-- they may just be just 6" deeper than surrounding bottom, but could be a good place for a fish to lay up out of current, so file them away to hit later with a nymph along the bottom.

These are just a few random thoughts but keep asking questions