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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

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Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
Uh, okay Dan . Sounds good.

I have no reason to doubt it -- did you test any other knots out of curiosity? I mean besides the triple surgeons. Though I've not had problems with the triple surgeons, I have to stretch the **** out of the leader due to the non-linear way it connects lines. I'll admit the blood knot is probably the most straight I've seen.

Also, do you use blood knots for connecting lines with different diameters?

Also - I get that a test by berkley "testers" is probably not a highly scientific test of line breaking strength more than it is a test of the breaking strength of berkely lines, tied by that beared berkley guy. I get that. But that said, a lot of people have access to it -- and I personally don't know you. I do believe you, but just keep this in mind since your post almost borders on suggesting that a person would be "dumb" by putting any faith into berkley whenever it's not like there are a lot of alternatives, and everyone on this forum is essentially a "random person on the internet".
I don't generally test other knots because once I found a way to do it that will break where I want it to I didn't need to anymore. My leaders go from the line end on a 15' leader let's say, going for an 8 lb. breaking strength, Perfection loop - 54" 30 lb - blood knot - 54" 20 lb - blood knot - 36" 12 lb - blood knot - 36" 8 lb - Trilene Knot - Fly

The Trilene Knot is no longer a necessity since they stopped making me send the fly attached to the leader unless it's for the IGFA. They still require the fly attached. The Perfection Loop is not a 100% strength knot but it is in the example I just did going to fail at far more than 8 lbs. so it doesn't need to be 100%.

I should also have said 14 times because my last four records were on Joni's furled leaders so I should not have counted them in the 18. The guys doing the testing there are I am sure a lot more accurate than whatever it is Berkeley thinks it's doing. Peoples records are at stake. They are precise, calibrated, and practiced.

On a final note, I have a spools of ANDE that I know exactly what they break at. If I have a failure, I know it was a knot or a nick. When I don't have a failure and it comes back at just what the line alone breaks at and I know my knots are 100%. When I first started doing this, I asked the guy who did the testing where my leader broke at everytime. Not once was it in the knot.

I was not "suggesting that a person would be "dumb" by putting any faith into berkley whenever", just saying they are flat out wrong on this one, and their mono sucks. That's all.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

Dan just read your posts, very interesting, I use a blood knot except on the tippet since the surgeon knot seems so simple to me I guess, especially on the thin line. I have personally never had one break on me, but I do see how a blood knot could possibly be strong. I may start practicing mine to get better at it and start trying it on my leaders.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

Dan - do you use the same number of turns on each side when tying 2 pieces of different mono together with a blood knot? Do you use a 2/4 or 3/5 turn scheme? (i.e. more turns for lighter line)

My only issue I run into with blood knots is the tag ends coming out when I go to cinch it up. If I take my time I do it fine, but it's not the easiest knot I tie -- that's for sure.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

Yeah I just tied one with my flouro and when I am just sitting here it is simple to tie, but I can see myself messing it up when out on the stream when I am wanting to get it done haha

But that is a good question, how many times do you wrap it around, say on a 6x or 7x
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

I know that the uni and blood knots will NOT function well if the diameters are too different and you use the same number of turns.

Say, connecting 20 pound mono to 10-12 pound mono or something. IF you use the same number of turns, one side (small line) will fully tighten and the other side (bigger) will remain untigtened, which has to weaken the knot considerably.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
Dan - do you use the same number of turns on each side when tying 2 pieces of different mono together with a blood knot? Do you use a 2/4 or 3/5 turn scheme?
4/4 every time. I hold the tag ends one in my teeth, one on my fingers and then pull on the running lines to get it turned down, then spit on it and yank the running lines till it's tight. Just make sure it's good and tight before you go clipping the tag ends off.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
I know that the uni and blood knots will NOT function well if the diameters are too different and you use the same number of turns.

Say, connecting 20 pound mono to 10-12 pound mono or something. IF you use the same number of turns, one side (small line) will fully tighten and the other side (bigger) will remain untigtened, which has to weaken the knot considerably.
That right there tells you it is not as good a knot.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

I use a surgeon's knot for the whole leader. So far, no problems.
A surgeon's knot has two turns and a double-surgeon's has four, I can't imagine a triple surgeon's knot, that would be six turns in the loop and incredibly fat.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

I've been making my leaders for close to 40 years. I use the Ritz method of tapering the leader. I usually start with 25 lb mono then 15 then 12 then 10, then 8, then 6 and so on.

I start with a real nail knot to tie a very short 25 to 30 lb test mono and a perfection loop. This little 2 to 3 inch affair is what I tie my leaders to. I then use blood knots all the way to the tippet. I hate fluorocarbon and I just can't understand why people continue to buy this stuff. The only reason I can see is due to the fact that they rarely use very fine lines and don't realize how weak fluorocarbon really is. I never use mono that is over 6 lb test when spinning. I often use 2 lb test. For walleye, I most often use 4 lb test. I never have any break offs because my reel is adjusted properly. I tried fluorocarbon a few times and was immediately very disappointed. On tip of that, the junk (fluorocarbon) sinks....not much good for dry fly fishing.

Fluorocarbon is not even good when fishing nymphs. Due to the fact that it sinks, the nymph drags on the bottom and hangs up. With mono, the nymph immediately lifts off the bottom when the line is pulled even slightly.

I tie my fly to the tippet with a George Harvey knot. I go as low as 3/4 lb test (350 grams) when fly fishing and have not had a fish break me off either.

I use Maxima mono and Racine Tortue mono for my fly leaders. I would use other leader material but nothing else is available in my region.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

I think we may have two different types of fishing here. Someone commented on tying the connection on the stream or in the water. I agree that knot or knots are easier than biminis and nail/tube/needle knots are. I have caught Blue, Black and Striped Marlin, Sail fish,Groupers,and a Mako estimated at 500 pounds, all using nails and biminis. Its the knot the pros use and I use them too. I am not saying other knots aren't strong just that It's my money and I'll bet on them. I'm at my Sisters place in the Keys and I'm going out this a.m. to see if I can breakoff a Shark due to a knot failing, the odds are it won't happen.



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Old 01-20-2013, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Tippet knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
I know that the uni and blood knots will NOT function well if the diameters are too different and you use the same number of turns.

Say, connecting 20 pound mono to 10-12 pound mono or something. IF you use the same number of turns, one side (small line) will fully tighten and the other side (bigger) will remain untigtened, which has to weaken the knot considerably.
Years ago I read a knot test of the blood knot trying a different number of turns on each side of the knot. The tester found that what was crucial was that the turns on each side of the knot should grab the same amount of the standing line. If we make an equal number of wraps of the line on each side, the thinner and weaker line will be "grabbing" a shorter section of the thicker line. For as stronger knot you take more turns with the thinner of the of the two lines to match the thicker line side.

So to tie 5x to 3X, make 4 turns withe the 3 x and 5 turns with the 5 x.

The second criteria was that there should be no less than 4 turns and no more than 6 turns. Fewer than 4 turns and more than 6 turns makes a weaker knot. When the line diameters varied so much that you could not get a balanced knot with 6 turns on one side and 4 on the other, you would not get the best knot.

For example, with equal diameter lines like the photo below, you take an equal number of turns. But if the red rope was thicker, you would take more turns with the blue so the length of blue on the right side of the knot equaled the length of red on the left side.

Click the image to open in full size.
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