The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > General Fly Fishing Discussion > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussions regarding fly fishing as a whole. Ask questions. Get answers...

Like Tree5Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:50 PM
rayzor's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: on the Stream
Posts: 181
rayzor will become famous soon enoughrayzor will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

one thing I cannot my head round is jig hooks... if you like them fair play but they aint for me ..
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:18 PM
nick k's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 1,215
nick k is just really nicenick k is just really nicenick k is just really nicenick k is just really nice
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
I am going to bust a couple of myths about hook eye direction.

Myth 1 - The direction of the hook eye affects the angle of pull on the fly, and angle of pull will affect how well the fly "hooks" the fish.

Myth 2 - The direction of the hook eye affects the hooking gape. A down eye hook will have less hooking ability and should be avoided in small flies because it narrow the hooking gape.

Reality - The direction of the hook eye does not affect the angle of pull on the fly and makes very little difference in the ability of the fly to "hook" a fish.

Gary Borger on pg. 178 of Designing Trout Flies demonstrates why the angle of a hook eye has no effect on the angle of pull on the hook. The angle of pull is determined by where the rod tip is in relationship to the hook and not by the angle of the hook eye to the shank. For example, one would think that a down eye hook would cause the angle of pull to be "down" on the hook, but the angle of pull is actually up if the rod tip is above the level of the hook when the hook set occurs.

The slight offset of the hook eye provides no significant "lever" force to affect the angle of pull. Imagine the tip of a crowbar as the angled hook eye. When you push on the long end of the long end of the crow bar, the force of the push is magnified by the longer lever arm of the crow bar. But if you reverse the crow bar and push on the angled tip, you will have difficulty moving the long arm of the crow bar because the long lever arm is now working to reduce the force. The same thing occurs with an angled hook eye; there can be very little force generated by pulling on the short angled eye (short crow bar head) against the long shank (long arm of the crow bar) of the hook to move the hook point.

Some fishers also think that a down eye hook somehow "narrows" the hooking gap and negatively affects the hooking ability of the pattern. That is not true either. The gap is the distance between the hook shank and the point and is not determined by the direction of the eye. What narrows the hooking gap is the material that is tied onto the hook at the location of the gap.

Mustad has perpetrated this fallacy by writing that the hook eye position affects hooking.

"The position of the eye is an important factor when it comes to improving the hooking potential of artificial lures. “Straight” is the standard eye position. Here are three other variants:"

Hook Anatomy « Mustad

The reason Mustad says that is the "penetration angle" of a hook. If you place a hook agains a flat table top, a down eye hook has a shallower "penetration angle" due to the angle of the hook eye; and Mustad argues that a shallower angle is less likely to hook the fish.

I used to believe that penetration angle was important, but as I read more, I've changed my view. Therefore, I have some disagreement with what Mustad has written about how important the eye position is in hooking. I think any effect is very very minor. The reason is that hooking (penetration) angle does not stay constant.

Once the hook point penetrates flesh, the hook pulls on the flesh deforming it and simultaneously the hook rotates in line with the angle of pull of the line. The eye of the hook no longer rests nicely at a 90 degree angle to the flesh as it does on a table top.

The angle of pull on the shank and the hook point are pretty much equal when the hook eye does not rest on against a flat surface. I believe that this angle of pull drives the hook point further into the flesh at pretty much the same angle which is determined by the angle of pull on the eye rather than the angle of the eye of the hook.

If the hook point is sharp, hook eye position does not matter much. The hook point will enter the flesh regardless of the difference in hook eye position. Hooking gap and offset have a greater effect in my view because they affect the probability that any fish flesh comes to lie against the hook point.

Need more proof? Let's examine what actually happens when a fish takes a fly.

When the fish's mouth is closed on the fly, it doesn't matter how the eye of the hook is angled. There is no "mouth" or opening for the fly to lie at perpendicular to a flat table. The jaw is closed so the hook of the fly is flat to the upper and lower jaw. The fish has turns and the fly is pulled along inside the closed mouth. This is why the fish is most often hooked in the side of the mouth at the junction of the upper and lower jaw.

Experience tells us this where most of the flies hook the fish. And it doesn't matter whether the fish is hooked on a dry, a nymph or a streamer. It doesn't matter whether the hook eye is up, straight, or down. It doesn't matter whether the fish takes the fly head on like a dry or or from the side. So something else is going on.

When the fish closes its mouth on the fly, the fly rotates so that the fly lies flat or in a horizontal rather than in a vertical position. The hook point is directed sideways and when you strike, it lodges in the side of the mouth at junction of the upper and lower jaw. So the position of the hook eye makes little difference. This is also why an offset hook point works. The offset hook point juts out against the surface of the mouth, when the mouth is closed against the fly.

I think hook eye position is more about the aesthetics of the fly and the ease of tying the fly than any effectiveness in hooking.
I disagree about disregarding line pull angle because its controlled by the relation of the rod tip. I think it's far to obvious to say that the angle of the rod tip controls more of the hook angle than the hook eye position does. This does not mean that, all things equal, the hook eye does not affect hook point angle. Given a set rod tip angle, the hook eye angle should still realistically (although to a very small degree) effect hook point angle. Again, it is easy to say that the rod tip determines this overall, but keeping this one value equal across all hook eyes will give you different results.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:28 PM
rayzor's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: on the Stream
Posts: 181
rayzor will become famous soon enoughrayzor will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick k View Post
I disagree about disregarding line pull angle because its controlled by the relation of the rod tip. I think it's far to obvious to say that the angle of the rod tip controls more of the hook angle than the hook eye position does. This does not mean that, all things equal, the hook eye does not affect hook point angle. Given a set rod tip angle, the hook eye angle should still realistically (although to a very small degree) effect hook point angle. Again, it is easy to say that the rod tip determines this overall, but keeping this one value equal across all hook eyes will give you different results.
I wouldn't take things too serious other wise we will get into the land of calculators... how long the leader... tippet length... stilllwater or running..flow ...depth..angle of rod to water.. lift up or across..

I totally understnd where your all coming from but ... fishing is all about fun , too much other **** going on to make the one thing we all enjoy being serious ... but thats just my thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:40 PM
dabluz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Chicoutimi, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 131
dabluz has a spectacular aura aboutdabluz has a spectacular aura aboutdabluz has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

I prefer an angled hook eye. Up or down....no difference to me because I use the George Harvey knot to tie my flies to my tippet. I don't like straight eyes because of the big ugly knot that sticks out in front of the fly. This big ugly knot sticking out the front of the hook actually makes the fly bigger and even adds more weight to the front of the fly.

Unfortunately, the George Harvey knot is difficult to remove. You need really good nail clippers or better yet....good small scissors.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 09:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,554
bigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud of
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
I don't like straight eyes because of the big ugly knot that sticks out in front of the fly. This big ugly knot sticking out the front of the hook actually makes the fly bigger and even adds more weight to the front of the fly.
I guess that depends on the fly. I tie a lot on 1/0, 2/0 & 3/0 size hooks, some even larger, with fly lengths being up to about 10 inches in length. I doubt that knot in the front has much of an impact!
__________________
My Blog: http://tidewaterflyblog.blogspot.com

Remember, no one likes to be behind the big truck, but that's better than being under it!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:52 PM
wjc wjc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south florida
Posts: 1,444
wjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant future
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
I disagree about disregarding line pull angle because its controlled by the relation of the rod tip. I think it's far to obvious to say that the angle of the rod tip controls more of the hook angle than the hook eye position does. This does not mean that, all things equal, the hook eye does not affect hook point angle. Given a set rod tip angle, the hook eye angle should still realistically (although to a very small degree) effect hook point angle. Again, it is easy to say that the rod tip determines this overall, but keeping this one value equal across all hook eyes will give you different results.
I agree with you, Nick. I was going to take a picture of two large identical (but for the eyes) hooks to demonstrate - but set them down someplace and can't find them.

I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference for freshwater fish, but for large saltwater species, I believe it can. Very rarely, if ever, have I seen upturned eye flies for these species that were not meant to be snelled. Except for mine.

The reason, I think is because the pull angle on the hook (regardless of rod position) puts the pressure on the hook itself closer to the point end of the bend than on a straight eye. That in turn makes them more susceptable to straightening out. So they change the bend from that of a true "J" hook, and harden them up more . They also close the "J" to less than 180 degrees - as they do on many hooks now - even straight eyes.

Later.
__________________
http://www.miterclamp.com/Images/N_Amer_FF.jpg Cheers, Jim
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,995
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Imagine a tippet attached to the eye of the hooks below. Now imagine the tippet pulled upward, then straight, and finally downward by the rod tip. Judge for yourself whether there will be any significant difference in how the point of the hook will move.

Down eye hook

Click the image to open in full size.


Straight eye hook

Click the image to open in full size.


Up eye hook

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:49 PM
rayzor's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: on the Stream
Posts: 181
rayzor will become famous soon enoughrayzor will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

I find hooks like the Partridge Surehold are good barbless hooks. as the point is curved and very slightly longer, same as Tiemco barbless theres a few in there range very similar. they do help keep the fish on and are great for Hooking.
all my flies are Barbless or de-barbed if I cannot get the hook type in Barbless
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:31 PM
williamhj's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 2,543
williamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond reputewilliamhj has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayzor View Post
I wouldn't take things too serious other wise we will get into the land of calculators... how long the leader... tippet length... stilllwater or running..flow ...depth..angle of rod to water.. lift up or across..
This is what I was thinking too. By the time all the things you mentioned are factored in it's getting pretty complex. As well as the fact that by the time I set the hook who knows how the fly itself is oriented in relation to me or the fish's lip.

Would be interesting if someone would set-up a controlled experiment (and post the video) to see if one hook eye orientation hooked-up better than another. I personally don't worry about it enough to try to prove it one way or another. However, even if one was better in such a controlled environment, I don't know how that would translate into a world of currents, hook-set angles, etc. That would add a lot of variables.
__________________
- William Jensen
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:45 AM
wjc wjc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south florida
Posts: 1,444
wjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant futurewjc has a brilliant future
Default Re: Hook Eyes Up/Down/Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
Imagine......
No need.


Both hooks Gama SL12S 2/0's tied to ends of one length 30# Seaguar. Seaguar around around 5/16th rod like that in vice and in my hand off camera. Hand applying pressure. Upturned eye in foreground.
Click the image to open in full size.

Both hooks stuck into 3/4 plywood clamped to milling machine bed with same rod applied applying pressure down until one hook pulled out or seguar broke (fat chance).
Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.

For a description of what happens, see my previous post. Or simply believe what you believe.
Guest1 likes this.
__________________
http://www.miterclamp.com/Images/N_Amer_FF.jpg Cheers, Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Straight or Curved Sissors? Jimmie General Fly Tying Discussions 21 02-17-2013 11:11 PM
200 ORIGINAL VMC FLY TYING HOOK,3X-SHORT#14 DRY FLY TROUT HOOK,Bait:NwIP Ebay USA Fly Tying Equipment 0 03-08-2012 08:20 PM
Lightning Strike Streamer/Nymph Fly Tying Hook Ast. & Anglers Image Hook/Fly Box Ebay USA Fly Tying Equipment 0 10-18-2011 03:40 PM
straight leaders for nymphing? jpd5184 General Discussion 8 03-25-2011 01:00 PM
Telescopic to straight stick? Shane Stroud Fly Rods 6 11-30-2008 07:27 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.