Another dumb question

[busbus]

I am still a little confused about, how do I say it? Maybe the "size" of the fly you can cast with specific rods?

In other words, I have a 5wt rod. Are there flies that are too little for this setup? I would highly doubt it but I certainly am not xure.

On the other hand, are there flies that are too big and/or heavy for it?

The reason I ask is because I thought I would cheat and tie up a few flies on those jig heads that are used for those small, wiggly worms that are used in spin casting. These heads are pretty big and heavy and I tied them appropriately. As a result, I have some hefty flies.

Whenever I try to cast these bowling balls, I can feel everything during the cast and it seems like the rod is being yanked away from me on the back cast and it falls in a lump on the forward cast.

Maybe it is 100% my cast, I don't know. All I know is that it just doesn't feel right. But I do know I caught the biggest fish of my life using one of these things, even though I didn't catch it using a nice cast: I let it float downstream and fall into a hole. The original cast was ugly. I was just lucky.



ray

[silver creek]

Yes, there are flies that are either too heavy or have too much air resistance to be cast with lighter lines, leaders, and light rods.

Light flies can be cast with heavier lines and fly rods BUT the lines will land harder and can spook fish.

As I have said many times that a fly rod has two functions:

1. To cast the fly

2. To fight the fish

It must do both. So in the case of fishing for 100 lb+ tarpon for example, a 9 wt rod will be able to cast the fly but a 12 wt rod is used because that is what is needed to fight the fish.

[mojo]

I've fished with 30 and 32's and a 5wt. many times. Winston LT, Orvis Far and Fine. Use a McFarland 5wt. glass too. Wouldn't use a TCR though. Medium and slow action graphite and glass or bamboo and a unithread furled leader.

[Diver Dan]

Originally Posted by busbus

On the other hand, are there flies that are too big and/or heavy for it?

The reason I ask is because I thought I would cheat and tie up a few flies on those jig heads that are used for those small, wiggly worms that are used in spin casting. These heads are pretty big and heavy and I tied them appropriately. As a result, I have some hefty flies.

ray

That's probably a bad idea. You can cast with no fly at all perfectly well. No such thing as to small. There is on the other hand, such a thing as to big. I cast Clousers with Medium and Large lead hour glass eyes on a 5 with no problem. I can cut the fly off and cast farther.

The reason for this is the physics of casting. In spin casting, that jig head you used would carry the line out. It's the other way around with fly casting. In fly casting the line carries the fly. If you get to much fly, and not a heavy enough line your cast will be a failure. I have a 12 wt. rod I can probably cast that jig, but still, I could then turn around and cut it off and cast much farther with no fly at all.

The best thing to do with those jig flies is save them for your spinning rod or use them to troll deeper. It might seem like a good idea to 'cheat' and get farther with weight, but it actually works against you.

[busbus]

Originally Posted by Diver Dan

You can cast with no fly at all perfectly well. No such thing as to small. There is on the other hand, such a thing as to big.

Thanks a lot, Dan. This confirms what I thought: nothing is too small but too big is bad. You are right: I was cheating.


This begs another question: How do I know if something is too big/heavy? Those are two different things, I know. Do I just experiment or is there some sort of broad guideline?

[pszy22]

I don't know that I would necessarily call it bad, it's just a matter of whether or not you find it an enjoyable way to fish. There is an "art form" (tongue in cheek) called - Chuck and Duck. Quite honestly, alot of people do it, and they catch fish, it's just a matter of whether or not it floats your boat.

[silver creek]

Casting is a matter of control.

The question of casting a heavy weighted fly with a lighter rod is whether the angler can do this with control. Is the caster able to determine where and how the fly, leader and fly are going to land?

There is a point of transition when the heavy fly controls where and how it going to land rather than the angler casting a fly line. Chuck and duck comes very close to going over that tipping point, and some forms of chuck and duck are closer to what happens with a spinning rod than a fly rod.

Truth be told, I think sometimes I would be better off casting a heavy fly and strike indicator outfit with a noodle spinning rod.

[fredaevans]

Originally Posted by busbus

Thanks a lot, Dan. This confirms what I thought: nothing is too small but too big is bad. You are right: I was cheating.


This begs another question: How do I know if something is too big/heavy? Those are two different things, I know. Do I just experiment or is there some sort of broad guideline?

Speaking from the perspective of 2hander rods only. The rod/line will tell you in three casts.

[Diver Dan]

Originally Posted by pszy22

There is an "art form" (tongue in cheek) called - Chuck and Duck.

Chuck and duck, which has come up fairly often, is a fine example of to heavy. You can't fly cast it, hence the "chuck". The "Duck" is because getting hit in the head with a fistfull of lead hurts and is a warning. You can also do it on a spinning rod and in my opinion is not fly fishing, even if you use a fly rod to "chuck" a handful of lead. There is a dressed up form (Hahaha, not really, it's just the same thing where they were to lazy to make slinky weights) called the Provo bounce. Not fly fishing either and they even leave the fly line on. Many chuck and duckers are just running straight mono. They don't even try and pretend it's flyfishing.

The way to tell if it is to heavy is it will become to hard to get any distance with. The best thing to do is use the smallest amount of weight that you can get away with and still get down to where the fish are. You can make that depth a couple of ways. Heavier flies, sink tip lines, sinking lines or a combination of heavy fly and some line type.

Ard came up with a pretty slick idea also. He is making chunks of fast sinking line like T-17 or something, and putting loops on both ends and incorporating them in the leader. I stole his idea and it works really well.

You can make those and use them between the line and leader as well. That works also, but Ard's idea of putting it in the leader will get you a bit deeper because the leader butt does not float like your fly line.

Another thing you can do to get more depth if you have current, is to cast up river and let it drift and sink till it gets to where your fish are. The current will will start to pull your fly back up though as it gets below you on the swing. If you start off down stream, you can't get as deep.

One more trick, and the one I use the most, is to use a combination of a weighted fly (medium hour glass eyes), casting up current and counting down like you would a sinking crankbait and a longer leader. I hook bottom in really deep water that way with a fairly good current sometimes. In fact I hooked bottom once in what I know was every bit of 22', but I also added to the three I mentioned in this a sinking poly leader made by Trevor Morgan. It really gets you down there.

One last trick you can do is any of the above, but after the line hits the water, walk down river with it as it sinks to keep the line drag free. Drag will pull on the fly and slow or stop your drop. I have done this here when the current is really bad and still get the fly down where I need it.

One last thing I forgot to mention in the post before, when I was talking about what weight pulls what in the different forms of fishing, is that when you have the weight in the lure trying to carry the line, and the line is heavy, they fight each other. It will stop you from getting the distance you want.

[Rip Tide]

Originally Posted by silver creek

Yes, there are flies that are either too heavy or have too much air resistance to be cast with lighter lines, leaders, and light rods.

Light flies can be cast with heavier lines and fly rods BUT the lines will land harder and can spook fish.

As I have said many times that a fly rod has two functions:

1. To cast the fly

2. To fight the fish

It must do both. So in the case of fishing for 100 lb+ tarpon for example, a 9 wt rod will be able to cast the fly but a 12 wt rod is used because that is what is needed to fight the fish.

Actually it's the line that casts the fly and the rod that casts the line.
That may sound like nit-pickin' but if you wanted to use a heavier line than normal on your rod, you can cast heavier flies.
I often overline to cast big flies on light rods