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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

Hi Diamond Rush,

I wouldn’t mess with it.

Ethics aside, un-permitted tampering with any vegetation ( dead or alive ) within a riparian zone in some areas can lead to some pretty steep fines. This lesson was learned in a most public way some years ago by a well known outfitter out this way, who merely wanted to open up a casting lane.

I'd not only check with the N.F.S. before acting, but with your states fish and game dept as well. In the end, someone from one of those agencies may well see fit to do something about it, if it's a popular area.


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Old 02-25-2013, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

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Originally Posted by trout trekker View Post
Hi Diamond Rush,

I wouldn’t mess with it.

Ethics aside, un-permitted tampering with any vegetation ( dead or alive ) within a riparian zone in some areas can lead to some pretty steep fines. This lesson was learned in a most public way some years ago by a well known outfitter out this way, who merely wanted to open up a casting lane.

I'd not only check with the N.F.S. before acting, but with your states fish and game dept as well. In the end, someone from one of those agencies may well see fit to do something about it, if it's a popular area.


TT
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

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Originally Posted by trout trekker View Post
Hi Diamond Rush,

I wouldn’t mess with it.

Ethics aside, un-permitted tampering with any vegetation ( dead or alive ) within a riparian zone in some areas can lead to some pretty steep fines. This lesson was learned in a most public way some years ago by a well known outfitter out this way, who merely wanted to open up a casting lane.

I'd not only check with the N.F.S. before acting, but with your states fish and game dept as well. In the end, someone from one of those agencies may well see fit to do something about it, if it's a popular area.


TT
You mentioned this before I had a chance.

Some states have a law about 'changing the course of a navigable stream'. As usual, that law can mean different things to different people.

Before I messed with a stream, I'd do as you suggest and ask.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

I think it depends on a lot of things. How much pressure the water is under, how well established is the dead fall in the stream environment. There are times when I might remove something, having had many years of stream enhancement experience. Then there are times when some things are better left as is.

I don't like to say yes to blanket statements. I would probably side most often on leave it as is. But there are instances where removing something recently fallen in can improve conditions in the long run; but they''re rare.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

I had a post but deleted it.

All my doing now is smiling my azz off.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

My take - don't ever apply your ethics to anyone.

To me, If it is legal it's ethical. If it's legal to remove it and you choose to, fine. No one has the right to give you a blast of sh*t about it if you aren't breaking the law. With people breaking the fishing regs so regularly -- why not focus on them instead of people within the lab-abiding? For every guy moving a pile of sticks or fishing with an indicator there's a guy using a cast net or snagging rig on your stream at night.

If anyone feels strongly that you shouldn't do it and raises hell with you about it, they should be able to point to the regs and specify which law is being violated. Ultimately, nothing matters in court except the interpretation of the regs. . Your personal feelings, emotions, and even common sense won't matter whatsoever.

I like this talk of stewardship on the water . It's fishing people, and it's for you -- not the fish. Get over yourselves. if you really feel like you're "helping the fish or the stream" by wading through it, making noise, and catching fish and letting them struggle around, etc. you're possibly delusional.

If you are going for pure, unadulterated stewardship -- take up photography from the bank and leave your fly rod at home.

Please just don't remove my shopping cart structures from the urban streams I fish here, you elitist snobs and your "woody debris" make me sick .

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

Quote:
Obstacles are part of the game, leave it. Mother nature puts things where she wants and it's not our place to disturb them just to make things easier for us.

It's not our house, so don't rearrange the furniture.
This is a good example of a well-intentioned post that applies personal ethics too broadly. For example, tick-borne illness meets the criteria for "natural" based on your above statement, so would you recommend against the use of DEET? How about sunburn?

This other guy just said that Jesus put me here to have "dominion" -- doesn't that mean I can move a pile of sticks?

How about using natural remedies to treat leukemia since it is a natural disease? What about dengue fever?

Slippery, slippery slope! -- but still worth considering and discussing. Just using you here, nothing personal.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

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Originally Posted by plecain View Post
You mentioned this before I had a chance.

Some states have a law about 'changing the course of a navigable stream'. As usual, that law can mean different things to different people.

Before I messed with a stream, I'd do as you suggest and ask.
If I got fined for moving a dead tree hanging over a stream and the ticket said 'changing the course of a navigable stream' on it, I could beat it with a discount lawyer from K-Mart. A that is not navigable water with anything bigger than a rubber duck and moving that tree would only improve it navigability and would do nothing to change it's course.

Now let me expand on what I said before about what a bad attitude this whole "Oooooo leave it lay!" attitude is. I recently went back to my home state of Colorado. I drove North out of Dillon along the Blue through the Rocky Mountain National Forest. There are towns that have large areas of Beetle Killed forest right into town. One lightening strike WILL burn those towns down. I say it now and I will say I told you so when it happens.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

Wow, I think I.....agree with Diver Dan? Cool. Maybe that monster smallie is headed my way too .

Hey everyone -- 10 bucks to the last poster who gets in before this thread is locked!
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

Don't worry Dan,things are like that over here as we have too many Do -Gooders/Beauracrats getting paid big Money to make sensless decisions,we can be Fined for removing a Tree from our Backyard whereas just 8-10 miles away a Mining Company who had The Lease to Mine The Coal Has virtually knocked down thousands of Trees,Cut away The Hillside which is honestly a eyesore & nothing has been said,so where's the Ethics.
Also Because lots of Places have been bought by The Government & turned into National Parks & all The Stock removed The Fuel buildup has been enormous subsquently all our Huge Bushfires.
So after seeing all this transpire what's really wrong with removing a Branch or two as we don't need A Bulldozer to do it.
Brian.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Is it Ethical to Clear Deadfalls Over Holes?

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Wow, I think I.....agree with Diver Dan? !
And when you can grab the pebble from my hand Grasshopper....
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